Transmission help

[MichiganTed]

I just got the engine and brakes working sufficient to go around the block for the first time in my 65 Sprite project. Clutch feels good - goes into first no problem, no grinding. But I don't have second gear. It doesn't grind while trying to shift into second, there is just nothing there when shifting from 1-2 or from a 3-2 downshift. In the driveway, the shifter while trying 2nd gear doesn't go back into the "H" pattern as far as 4th gear goes. Possible linkage or broken shift rod?

Also, reverse is very hard to find. Wiggle wiggle push and jiggle and oh - there's reverse. But again, feels like linkage. Slides in clean once you find it and doesn't pop out of gear once your in it, it's just very hard to find.

I'm wondering if the two are related? Likely not. And if either / both are an in-vehicle repair or am pulling the trans? I haven't tried anything yet. and pulling the shifter cover plate won't likely reveal much. Thoughts?

 

[Gerard]

My guess is the locating bolt securing the fork to the rod is slipping. Reverse has it's own fork, but if second is engaged. partially or otherwise, there are detents that will lock out getting into another gear. The reverse may or may not be related though. Hard to know without solving the second gear issue.

You can check the locating bolts for 1st/2nd and 3rd/4th through the side inspections cover. Reverse is accessed though the drain plug hole.

 

[MichiganTed]

Good thought. If second is hanging up the lockup might explain why reverse is so difficult. I'll have a go at it after work tonight. Thanks!

 

[MichiganTed]

Both of the rear mounting bolts are missing. 2 bell housing bolts are missing. Ground cable swinging in the breeze. A cork jammed in the fill hole! Your kidding me. Oil leaking from every possible casting joint and plug. At that point, I crawled out from under her - I'll try again when I'm in a better mood.

 

[MichiganTed]

Drained the "oil." It looked more like coffee with cream and seemed low but there was no metal or glitter. Pulled the inspection plate and I see a bit of surface rust but in only one small area (after rolling the drive shaft around). By the way, this vehicle hasn't run since the early / mid 80's. There are lots of missing fasteners. Not sure if someone was going to pull the transmission or had pulled it, mucked it up, and reinstalled it incompletely.

Regarding reverse: I pulled the shift level and noticed the "bush and spring" (Moss items 60 & 61) are missing. With considerable effort pushing down, I can find reverse. Seems better the more I work it. I'm wondering if the missing bush and spring is why it's so difficult to find reverse? That the missing components are not disengaging the detents.

Regarding 2nd gear: a pic of the assembly in 1st gear ( no issues) and 2nd gear through a mirror ( I can't believe these pic's came out as well as they did)! First gear, no issues. 2nd just doesn't slide far enough for the fork to engage the gear. Fork retaining screws are engaged with the shift rods. I've rolled the transmission around with the clutch disengaged while holding pressure on the shift rod toward 2nd - never have gotten into second. Help!

 

[Gerard]

2nd just doesn't slide far enough for the fork to engage the gear. Fork retaining screws are engaged with the shift rods. I've rolled the transmission around with the clutch disengaged while holding pressure on the shift rod toward 2nd - never have gotten into second. Help!

Ted,

The 1st/2nd gear synchronizer hub has 3 springs and balls that are fitted between the inner and outer hub. It happens sometimes happen that the outer hub can travel too far forward and allow the balls and springs to escape. The spring can protrude get jammed, bent or sheared off, preventing travel into 2nd. If you can fish around the bottom with a magnetic wand fo one of the balls, this might confirm my suspicion. This situation will often lock the car in gear, but it depends on how bad the two hubs are jammed together.

 

[MichiganTed]

Pulled the engine and trans. Found 1 small ball bearing and a cylindrical pin, rounded on both ends that's to large to be a roller bearing. No springs. Started cleaning and pulling parts and now I've managed to get the 1-2 shift rod jamed by what I believe are the detent pins behind the inspection plate. Time for a break.

Does the Haynes Workshop Manual have sufficient teardown procedures for a transmission overhall?

 

[aeronca65t]

I forget which manual I like for this, but the Moss Motors exploded views (below) can often be helpful in getting an idea about what's what:

 

[Gerard]

Thats the one. I don't think the Haynes is the best. You should get your hands on a Bentley (content from original factory shop manual).

Figure F.5 is where I believe your ball and plunger belong. It should be a smaller diameter than the rest of the detent plungers used elsewhere.

You can find the transmission section here:

https://www.spritespot.com/Downloads/Workshop%20Manual/F%20The%20Gearbox.pdf

 

[MichiganTed]

Thanks for the link - just what I needed. There is only one ball and spring, the other two are missing. The shift rods and forks appear to be new. The more I look it appears someone did a poor re-man. I'd better do a complete tear-down.

 

[MichiganTed]

Hey Gerard - next to the Figure F-5 you referenced there is a note about installing the 1-2 gear assembly. That if it's installed incorrectly => no second gear! That was it! Someone had this trans apart and mis-assemblied her. Thank you so much for the reference. Now I'm shopping for parts.

During inspection I noticed the synchro-rings are worn to the point of having clearance between the cone. I've never seen synchro's worn that bad. I'm used to laying the synchro on the cone and if it bottom's out - replace it. But I've never seen them so worn there's clearance between the cone and synchro? I measure the cones to be about 0.006" to 0.010" under size from the manual and they're burnished so I'm thinking I'll wire wheel the cones and just replace the synchro's.

During re-assembly:
Grease both main shaft bearings?
Vaseline to hold the loose needle bearings?
Grease or oil the interlock ball bearings and pins?

I can't believe there's no front seal!

 

[Gerard]

Hey Gerard - next to the Figure F-5 you referenced there is a note about installing the 1-2 gear assembly. That if it's installed incorrectly => no second gear! That was it! Someone had this trans apart and mis-assemblied her. Thank you so much for the reference. Now I'm shopping for parts.

That's correct sir... there is only one way that should be assembled. Interesting what you will discover when someone's been mucking around, huh?

During inspection I noticed the synchro-rings are worn to the point of having clearance between the cone. I've never seen synchro's worn that bad. I'm used to laying the synchro on the cone and if it bottom's out - replace it. But I've never seen them so worn there's clearance between the cone and synchro? I measure the cones to be about 0.006" to 0.010" under size from the manual and they're burnished so I'm thinking I'll wire wheel the cones and just replace the synchro's.

not sure I understand the reference... do you mean side-to-side?... if the cone is undersize, the gear might need replacing. You should have clearance between the baulk ring and gear face... you want no less than .020-.025 when the ring sits squarely on the cone. I'm not sure what the upper limit is, but around .055-.060. Also, see my tech page regarding baulk rings:

https://gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tech/baulk_rings/baulkringsWS.htm

During re-assembly:
Grease both main shaft bearings?
Vaseline to hold the loose needle bearings?
Grease or oil the interlock ball bearings and pins?

I can't believe there's no front seal!

There are a couple sources for front covers with retrofitted seals... not cheap though.

I don't think you need to use grease on anything other then maybe the speedo gear unless it's to aid assembly. Everything going to be bathed in oil when you fill it up. I think I'd used Moly assembly lube rather the wheel bearing grease.

 

[rkep01]

During re-assembly:
Grease both main shaft bearings?
Vaseline to hold the loose needle bearings?
Grease or oil the interlock ball bearings and pins?

I can't believe there's no front seal!

There are a couple sources for front covers with retrofitted seals... not cheap though.

I don't think you need to use grease on anything other then maybe the speedo gear unless it's to aid assembly. Everything going to be bathed in oil when you fill it up. I think I'd used Moly assembly lube rather the wheel bearing grease.

Ted - Check out this web page For the retrofitted seal front cover. I paid them $47 in November, I think, for a smooth case front cover. That included shipping. Just send them your unsealed front cover to get the core charge returned. :thumbsup:

 

[MichiganTed]

Regarding the gear cones, correct, there is clearance between the conical portion of the baulk ring and the conical portion of the gear cone. With the baulk ring sitting on the gear face you can slide the baulk ring around on the gear face on two of the three rings. The third just sits flat with no clearance between the gear face and baulk ring. I took some measurements and referencing the gear side cone dimensions from the manual all three cones are about 0.100" under-sized (rough measurements - not easy to establish the gage line). I'm guessing your going to tell me to replace the gears. Which makes this $150 rebuilt go to ~$600 and I might as well shop for a new trans altogether.

 

[Gerard]

Ted,

I have several of them. Also some spare gears, but if I didn't mention it before, there are different gear sets and "mix and match" can sometimes make for a noisy gearbox. I know how to ship them fairly economically too. Let me know if I can help.

See the following transmission parts cross reference to help ID what set you have, what's interchangeable and what's not.

https://gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tech/TransPartsIndex.htm

 

[MichiganTed]

Meet with a local Spridget club to get some experienced eyes on the trans. Two of three gears really need to be replaced along with, after degreasing and inspection the rear bearing, plus the usual suspects (seals, baulk rings, and a host of missing components). I'll be putting the body shell on a rotisserie this weekend - so I've got the summer to shop. Right now I'm thinking Datsun 210 conversion. It doesn't make since to put $550 to $600 in a re-build. I'm better off putting that cash toward an upgrade. Well; I've got the summer (and likely the winter) to shop around.