TR6 TR6 clutch opinions

[Guest]

Well, the last few days have been gorgeous here in NJ, with temps @ 50, or a few over, and sunny skies. Sunday I decided to wake the car up for a nice run while the getting was good and discovered a new ailment, my clutch is slipping. Not to badly, but if I really get on it and bang hard from 1st to 2nd I can get it to break loose, causing me to have to back off the power until it grabs hold, then I can get back on it. I have no idea how old this clutch is, it was in the car when I bought it. Someone swapped transmissions out in my car at some point in the past, my car is an OD car and this is not an OD trans. I’m assuming that when the swap was made they did the smart thing and put in a new clutch at that point, but that doesn’t help me now. Also not a help to the clutch was the PO telling me when I bought it how the car did really nice burnouts, great….

Anyway, this is annoying to me because it will make me a) have to tear out the trans, which I’m not looking forward to and b) cause me to have to sideline my plans for the electric fan and 60 amp alternator upgrades I had planned for this spring. I’m trying to keep spending down a bit, at least for the early part of the coming spring, or the wife will have my you-know-whats on a platter.

So anyway, here’s the point. Anyone have some sage advice for a clutch job on the TR6? I’ve heard stuff about a mod to the clutch fork pin, what’s this all about? I know that the pin is considered a weak point but I’m a little unclear on what exactly has to be done with regard to the mod. Also, I know the manuals call for pulling the transmission up and out through the interior but is this really necessary? I’d love to spare my brandy new interior any abuse and get the trans out through the bottom if at all possible. Now on to the meat and potatoes, what’s the best combination for a clutch kit for these cars? I’ve heard a million stories at my club meetings about clutch kits from the major suppliers that don’t work, and about mixing and matching components from various other applications to arrive at the “perfect” TR6 clutch. I’ve heard a regular TR6 spec clutch disk, a Saab pressure plate, and a Toyota Land Cruiser release bearing and a few other variations in between. Then I talked to my buddy who is a vintage Brit specialist shop owner here in my area and he told me he always uses the Borg and Beck setup and has never had a problem, provided everything else in the trans is in good shape. At this point I don’t know what to believe, but I trust my friend Dan and I’m tending to go the way of his suggestion unless I hear strongly against that. I’d hate to spend the money that TRF wants for something like the magic clutch kit and then have it suck. I know they warranty it but it’s still another job to tear the trans out again and replace it.

As always thanks a zillion for any help you guys can provide.

 

[Banjo]

before you buy a new clutch kit go to https://www.mntriumphs.org/Tech_Info/Clutch%20Folder/clutch.pdf
and check out this article. Its very informative and I've encountered the symptoms of the borg beck clutch they talk about. The throwout bearing is VERY sensative. I would strongly reccomend using the tool that moss sells or make your own. the key is to keep the bearing turning while pressing it on the sleeve. I would also reccomend warming the bearing in some sort of oven, and putting the bearing sleeve in the freezer to aid in the pressing. It's heart-breaking when it starts to squeal after a couple hundred miles. Trust me.
Also there is no way to get the tranny out of the bottom. You have to take it out the top, sorry. It's not really all that bad though.It's a ton easier with two guys ,espically when you get to the bolts on either side of the engine.Unless you have the arm-leingth of a gorilla, you'll need someone out front holding the bolts, while you loosen the nuts from under the dash. Just use a few blankets and tarps and your interor will be fine. You only need to take out one seat, but for wear and tear I would remove both. that'll give you a lot more room anyway. best of luck Guv'na

 

[MDCanaday]

Scott, never fear the clutch comes out through the top rather easily after seats are out of the way ect.ect.Dont buy a cheap clutch since it will haunt you daily. The trick with the cross shaft bolt is, if its broken its tough to remove, if it ain't, replace it and praise the saints!!! Take this opertunity to freshen up the drive shaft and the tranny seals. dont neglect the rear engine mount, its likely NFG.....
Good luck
MD(mad dog)

 

[71tr]

The above write-up on pressure plates is excellent, but there is another weak link in the TR-6 clutch operating system, the throw-out bearing. A realatively new product on the scene is the Gunst bearing. Manufactured by a German mechanic this bearing is designed to rotate pressed against the fingers of the pressure plate 100% of the time, thus avoiding the shock of going 0-60 everytime you depress the clutch pedal. The bearing also comes mounted on a bronze sleeve designed to function more smoothly than the hardened steel found on other bearings. I'm convinced, and have a gunst waiting in the wings for my restoration. Available at TRF for about $120. Here is a pretty good article on one-guys experience. https://www.ralittle2.com/Tech_Session_Log.html

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi,

As others said, you really don't have a choice, the trans cover has to come off to access the rear mount and drive shaft bolts. You can pull the gearbox alone at that point, out through the interior of the car, or can pull the engine and gearbox as a unit, out through the front. For a clutch job, I'd just pull the gearbox. It really isn't all that bad a job. I hope you have a manual that will walk you through the steps.

I strongly suggest you buy a kit from one of the big vendors or others who provide a warranty. You'll want at least the clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing. These are the minimum you want to replace. TRF takes it further, providing more parts and a better guarantee if you install it all as a kit. They can also provide other clutches, if you want an upgrade. See their website or give them a call.

If you don't go that route, other vendors usually don't tell you to replace the bushings on the cross shaft, where it passes through the bell housing, on either side. And, order twice as many bushings as specified, put two on each side. This will add a measure of security to keeping the cross shaft aligned (it's okay if the bushes stick out a little on the inside). You mention the pin in the yoke, which should always be replaced with a new, hardened one. Be absolutely sure the replacement is hardened. A lot of the problem with breakage is because un-hardened ones were sold by some vendors in the past. Hopefully they are all now only selling the hardened type. That pin needs to be safety wired in place, too.

When the tapered pin is broken it can be difficult to remove. If it's broken and stuck, it's usually possible to tilt the throwout bearing forward enough the drill a small hole in the top/back of the yoke, angled into the pin, and then carefully drive it out. Hopefully it's not broken or stuck. If it's whole, still be careful removing it, put some penetrating oil on it overnight before loosening, then be gentle with the wrench! It's good insurance is to drill and add another bolt on the righthand side of the yoke, a 1/4" NF Grade 8 with a nylock nut. This doubles the security of the yoke on the shaft.

Also be sure to replace the two pins at the very ends of the yoke, that ride in the throwout bearing sleeve and actuate the throwout bearing. These invariably have flat spots from wear, which creates play and *might* be one reason your clutch is slipping. Once worn to a certain point, it might not be possible to adjust the clutch enough to compensate. The poor TR owner's trick here is to just rotate the pins 90 degrees so that they wear on a previously unworn surface. But, they are cheap so why not just replace with new and be sure!

Also replace the slave cylinder rod that attaches to the actuating lever, as it is prone to wear. This is a good opportunity to throw a rebuild kit in the clave cylinder, too.

TRF talks a lot about being sure the two locating pins are in the bellhousing, to keep it properly aligned. They provide two replacements, in case yours are missing.

I've heard about the Gunst throwout bearing, but haven't tried it. If using the standard type of bearing, the other response is correct. Some caution is necessary to install the throwout bearing on its carrier, don't just press it in place with a vise and a couple pieces of wood (like most). See TRF and other places for instructions.

I do use a Borg & Beck clutch as was original to your car, in my TR4. It is stronger than the original TR4 clutch and I switched to it to handle the roughly 175 hp I'm squeezing out of the old 4-cylinder TRactor motor. In fact, the B&B was used in the factory sponsored race cars, reportedly without any failures.

The primary problem with the TR4A, 250, 5, 6 clutch is not the clutch itself but the larger slave cylinder and lack of adjustability. There is little play to adjust the clutch accurately and any slop in the actuating linkage will eventually lead to slippage and failure. All the above suggestions are aimed at reducing play in the linkage as much as possible, which, along with good, regular lubrication of all the linkage points, will help keep it working right.

Hope this helps!

Alan

 

[Guest]

Scott, all the above info is good and correct. Now a little bit about the actual mechanics of getting the beast out. I have had to pull my tranny four (4) times (don't ask) so I have it down pat. There are no mechanical gadgets to rent to help you, just grunt power. What I would recommend is getting the car up on 4 sturdy jack stands at a height that will comfortably allow the person on the floor to push up with adequate wiggle room, about two feet. The trick for me has been to cut a 2x4 and bevel one end to jamb between the back of the block (right behind the end of the oil pan) and the front of the engine plate. This will support the engine while you are in limbo with the tranny out. You will have to be able to slightly raise or lower the engine whilst manuevering the tranny in and out so you can do this with a jack and a block of wood (three 2x6's nailed and glued into a block) and some thick rags to jack from the pan. Yes, you can lift temporarily from the pan with plenty of padding. Just let it rest back on the beveled 2x4 after getting the tranny out. Now, you will need someone on the top to wiggle the tranny, tail up a bit, back, and then out. Unbolting the drive shaft and all the bolts on the bell housing (yes, the slave and starter gotta go) will free up the tranny and allow it to rest on the three studs at the top of the bell. Here is where you hold on. It won't fall because of the studs but you want to make sure that the removal is smooth and rear slightly up and back out so as not to damage the shaft. Might even consider just unbolting the whole rear bracket and lifting it out with the tranny (did I forget to tell you to unbolt the rear bracket?). Confused? The first time I was nervous but when it just popped out I was surprised. I have actually taken it out by myself all these times but it really is best to have someone in the missionary position. Leaving it on the 2x4 support will give you plenty of time to do other things and not worry about the engine being in an unstable state. Oh, and I have found that using an air wrench with long extensions makes bolt removal fast and easy. I always put new bolts and nuts and locks but that is me. Don't forget to rebolt up the body ground from the battery and the water pipe. Piece of cake. Good luck.

Bill

 

[Guest]

Wow, some excellent info here, thanks guys. Banjo, that article you linked was especially good food for thought, many thanks. I've seen the Gunst bearing advertised at TRF and I'll admit I like the idea and all but the price may end up being a little to rich for my blood. For what that bearing cost I can get an entire B&B kit from some suppliers. However, my buddy said to stay away from "Green" brand bearings. These are made in the UK and, in his opinion, total crap. Every one he's ever seen or used has failed in short order. He said to be careful as sometimes the Borg and Beck kits can come with any number of different brands of bearing, including Green. He used to use the Toyota bearings in his Lotus and loved them, said they probably would outlast the car. Still haven’t decided on any particular vendor or brand though, although right now I’m leaning toward the B&B just for simplicity sake and price. I noticed Moss sells the LUK kit, anyone had any experience with these? I remember someone in my club saying they had used it, but I can’t recall if they liked it or not. Price on that kit is close to what TRF wants for the Magic kit though.

I think I've got my mind wrapped around the actual getting the thing out and back in now. I've done a few clutch jobs over the years (76 Mustang, 77 Trans Am, 83 280ZX), although admittedly never through the top and never in a Triumph. Thanks for all the tips from everyone on making the surgery easier, I will be sure to use a little of what everyone has said. I think I understand the cross shaft issue and the taper pin. Hopefully when I get in there it won't be to bad. I'm pretty sure I'll go ahead and drill and tap for a second bolt or pin, sounds like good cheap insurance.

Just this past summer I had rebuilt the clutch master and slave cylinders, as the slave was starting to leak. I also added a stainless braided line. I found when I did that that the push rod for the actuation was connected to the cross shaft arm on the highest hole, which would create the least amount of mechanical advantage. I asked my buddy about it and he said it should be on the lowest hole to create the largest amount of advantage, as I suspected (longer the radius arm, higher the torque). I made the switch and that, coupled with the new hydraulics, made an incredible difference in the clutch engagement and smoothness. Figures though, now the clutch itself is slowly dying. I've got some time to do this though, the car still runs fine as long as I don't get on it to hard, and I usually don't start driving it regularly until the weather breaks anyway, so this looks like a good first project for the early spring season.

 

[red_tr250]

Hi,

New to this forum, but not new to TRs! I've been through this clutch thing. I currently have a B&B pressure plate installed. I also have the Gunst Bearing. I'm very pleased with the Gunst bearing, but not so pleased with the B&B pressure plate. I get a lovely squeel every time the clutch is depressed. I did not preload the TO bearing as described in the Gunst instructions, but I'm convinced it's the "cranked" fingers on the pressure plate. I had a heavy duty B&B pressure plate installed prior. It did NOT have the cranked fingers. It did not squeel. I then installed the new B&B & reused the same TO bearing(RHP). Didn't want to use the new RHP bearing due to rumored quality control issues. After the gearbox installation, I immediately experienced the squeel. I then installed the gunst TO bearing...same thing. I'm convinced the cranked fingers are to blame. Personally, I'm going to use a Sach's Pressure plate. They can be purchased through British Parts Northwest for 136 including a new clutch plate. NFI!

My 2 cents,

Todd
CD198L
CF25768UO

 

[Stinky]

Hey Todd Welcome aboard!

(does this car look familiar to you?)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[red_tr250]

i'll give ya' 500 bucks for it

 

[Stinky]

Tempting,........but I think I'll pass for now.

Have'nt been able to drive it since October (Dang Winter Weather) It get's downright depressing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif