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TR2/3/3A TR4A 16P Girling Calipers Adapted to TR3. Hose/tubing routing?

kindacreeky

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I decided to convert over to TR4A brake calipers on my Italia (TR3) restoration. Got the later caliper mounts from a TR6. Bought a pre-bent hard pipe that is to run from the caliper about 4" forward to an L-bracket to transition to the hose (like on the TR4A). However, I guess i did not realize that this is taking the hose to the front of the wheel instead of the rear like the TR3. This is going to force me to get creative with the hard lines on their way to the 5-way fitting. I assume that this conversion has been done before by others. What is the simplest way to tie the later type 16P caliper to the TR3 hard brake lines? Should I just dispense with the TR4A routing and go out the back like the TR3 did, or what have others done? Pics of hose and hard pipe routing would help, as I disassembled this chassis in 1986. Thanks for any suggestions. - Bob
 

charleyf

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It seems to me that you are over-thinking the situation. First I will say that I have TR4/4A front brakes on my TR3A project . Consider that the TR3B used these same TR4 calipers. The difference in the hose lines is the short flexible hose. Actually I believe the hose is slightly longer than the TR3 hose. There is no difference in the solid line or where it is attached and ends on the frame.
 

TR3driver

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AFAIK, the extra hard line was only on TR5 and later; not TR4A.

Didn't the Italia use Lockheed brakes? IIRC, a friend of mine said he had to get custom soft lines made to mate the Girling calipers to the Lockheed hard lines. The problem is those screwy banjo fittings that Lockheed used; the end of the soft line in effect forms the banjo bolt.

Another option might be to convert the front hard lines to the Girling pattern, and add the tabs on the frame behind the spring towers for the hard/soft joint. But that would mean finding a Girling 5-way connector (and mounting it), plus I don't recall offhand what the Lockheed hard line to the rear looks like. It might have to be custom made to mate between Girling up front and Lockheed in the back.
 
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kindacreeky

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My Italia has serial number TS76000 . It originally had the "B" type calipers (in the Moss catalog). did not use the Banjo fitting type lines. The Moss catalog shows the TR4A having the short hard pipe connected to the caliper. I have converted to the TR4 upper control arms. See pics. I bought TR4A connector hoses. When I try to use just the TR4A connector hose screwed right into the caliper, it fouls on the upper control arms on full left lock (on left wheel).If I screw in the short hard line to the caliper, it heads out toward the front of the wheel. I think that route looks better for less chance of rubbing with all positions of suspension and steering. but I have never seen where the brake hose lands on a TR4A.

charleyf, I see that I have bought the hose meant to run from the hard line of the TR4A forward to the chassis hard lines. You are saying that I should have bought the hose for the Girling 16P caliper as used on the TR3B and TR4. Moss says that hose is 11". I measured my hose and it is 11.25" from end of fitting to end of fitting. If you look at my pics, it does not look like a 1/4" shorter line will help this fouling situation. P1012021.jpgP1012022.jpgP1012023.jpgThe last pic shows that the line is not touching when steering is turned right to the lock. Is my fouling caused by the TR4 type upper control arms?
Also note that I am now using the TR4A-TR6 type caliper mounting plates.
Guys, thanks for the replies.
 

TomMull

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Bob,
Yours does not look a whole lot different than my TR3 with original split Girling calipers. The hose on mine does not actually hit the upper control arm but curves just underneath. The bends seem pretty sharp to me but it seems to work. Maybe a slightly shorter hose would help in your case?
There is a picture here of a TR6 with the pipe in front:
http://www.74tr6.com/brakerestoration.htm


Tom
EDIT: AFTER TAKING THE WHEEL OFF SO THAT I CAN ACTUALLY SEE IT I FIND THAT MY CALIPER HOSE CONNECTION IS SIGNIFICANTLY FURTHER AFT THAN IT APPEARED AND CERTAINLY FURTHER AFT THAN ON YOURS.
T
 
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kindacreeky

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I fiddled with it some more today. I tried the hose again running the old TR3 direction to the back of the spring. It just looks like it is going to be difficult to keep it from scraping on the upper control arms. (even with a slightly shorter hose). The later style caliper mounting bracket (mine came from a TR6) shifts the mounting position of the caliper CCW (on frt left) about 10 degrees. That may be where part of my trouble is coming from. this makes the hose point more upward when screwed into the caliper. I looked at a lot of pics on line of TR4A hose routing toward the front of the wheel. Since I have one of the pre-formed hard pipes that attaches to the caliper (on TR4A), I could use that to about tell where the hose would start going forward, if I decide to run it that way. I can make a new set of brackets to go in front of the spring holder part of the frame, weld them on, and just run the hose forward. I would have to buy or build the tube from that location. See attached pic.brake_lines_tr4a.jpg6739249.jpg This looks like a logical solution. And Triumph did change to this route for the TR4A and later. It is a cleaner route that does not cause any hard bends in the brake hose.
Edit: Just noticed that TR4A has the 5-way connector on the left side of the chassis instead of the right like on my TR3 chassis. This makes that hard pipe a custom. I guess I can buy some hard pipe and double flare tool.
 

charleyf

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I measured the soft line that I am using on the TR3 and it is 12& 3/4" shoulder to shoulder.
Charley
 
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kindacreeky

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Charley,

Appreciate you checking. "Shoulder" of the start of the threads, correct? Pretty long. I have some old hoses that I bought back in the 1980's (before I knew how complicated the hose choices are) that are for an early TR2-3 with the Banjo fitting. They are about that length. Will check tomorrow and see how well they work. You don't by any chance have the TR4 upper control arms, do you? I know that these 16P Girling calipers were used with TR4's with the later upper control arms, so it appears that rear fitting hose will work with those later control arms.
 

charleyf

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Yes shoulder of the start of the threads. No I am using the stock upper control arms on the TR3. I have a TR4 as well but would need to remove the wheel to measure the hose. I suspect it is the same hose as I have on the TR3. I use GBH206 from TRF. let me know if the TR4 measurement would help.
 
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kindacreeky

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I have two GBH206 hoses. As one end does not have flare type connection, I assumed it was for the banjo type fitting of the earlier TR2-3. I tried it on my chassis. it rubs on the end of the control arm a little in certain suspension and steering positions. It rubs more on the top knuckle bolt securing nut. The bolt is about 1/4" longer than the nut. I could reverse the bolts and that would not be an issue. If the hose were stainless clad, I would not worry about it. Later today I will take a pic. Does the flat end (non flare end) go on the caliper with a copper washer?
 

charleyf

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On the GBH 206 line one end is threaded and about 3/8" long this goes into the caliper with a copper washer. The other end is threaded for a flare fitting and is 7/8 to 1" long . I note that your frame is exactly like my TR3 frame with the mounting place being a tab a welded on and with a 3/4" rise off of the frame. On the TR4 frame the tab that the hose is mounted on is flat and longer. The center for the hole for the hose is 1" from the edge of the base. It appears to me that you could either try to straighten the existing tab or replace it . But the location of that tab appears to be the problem with using your configuration. You are set up like a TR4 for the calipers and upper A arms so likely you should follow through with the TR4 tab location. I can give you more specifics as to the exact location of that tab if you want them. I am guessing that position and angle are all important in fixing that tab.
 
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kindacreeky

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Charley: I looked the part up in Moss' catalog and saw the required copper washer, so then realized that I had the correct hoses all along. I had bought some aftermarket new calipers from a NW supplier. The thread for the hose is 0.530 deep to the edge of the taper. I measured an old Girling P16 caliper and it measured 0.515" deep. My GBH 206 hose will screw all the way down in that old caliper; however on the new one, it won't go deep enough to seal on a copper washer. I will have to cut off about 1/8" of the threaded end, but I can do that.
The info on the frame tab difference is very interesting and useful. I cannot completely understand how the TR4 tab looks, but I am getting the idea. You mean that the hole for the hose is 1" offset from the upright that the tab is welded to? If I straighten the tab, it will move the mounting hole further toward the rear. I will go a look at it now. A picture of that tab on a TR4 would be very helpful. If I can see that the hose will clear the upper control arm in all positions, I will definitely go the route you are suggesting.
 

charleyf

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View attachment 60712Here is one picture of the TR4 frame. Passenger side right side is bottom left is top of spring tower.
I agree that it looks like you should move forward and place the soft hose on the front of the spring tower.
 
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kindacreeky

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It came up as invalid attachment, see administrator. I could not open it. Thanks for trying.
The forward route is the cleaner route, no doubt. The TR4 rear route will save me work and money. If I go forward, i will need to buy another pre-bent connector tube or make one. Also, will have to invest in double flare tool and some more brake tubing.
I tried the correct hose to go to the rear. Also, reversed the outside bolt on the top steering knuckle. It looks like if the landing point on the frame was inboard, rearward and down about an inch, this set up would work. Maybe just bending the elbow out of the tab might work, as you suggested. Unfortunately, trying to paint my house too, so did not have much time for fun stuff today.
 
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kindacreeky

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charleyf, I appreciate all the help you have given. I think the TR4A hose routing is the way I am going to go. I will worry about it less. And, even though this is an Italia, I am upgrading mechanical stuff, even if the body and interior will be as near to correct as I can make it. So, in my hands, this Italia will never win an originality contest. But, it is my life passion, for me to decide how it will be restored or improved. Thanks again, and to all who followed this thread. These special mark forums are such a life saver for someone like me, eager to do the right thing, but limited in experience. --Bob in Nashville. Italia 184
 

charleyf

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Good for you. Truth is when it comes to parts of the car that are hidden you can modify a lot and still pass for original. If you can leave things like the original tab in place then your modification is actually temporary. The Italia is likely the real jewel of the Triumphs. I restored a TR3B and worked to keep it original. But when I could not find a overdrive tranny, I installed a Toyota 5 speed plus 3.45 rear axle gears. Neither of those items are obvious. My negative points in Concourse were for the Toyota yellow I painted it.
 
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