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TR4/4A TR4 Buyer's Guide

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Hegg

Hegg

Jedi Hopeful
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Here's a REALLY open-ended question/discussion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

When looking at and considering a TR4, what should I be looking for? Any particular features that make it worth more (such as wire wheels)? Any "gotchas" I should check to make sure the price is worth it?

And that's the 2nd question -- how much would one be worth? If it's complete, runs, and restorable, although needs some body work and rust repair, what's it worth?

(As you can guess, I might be looking at one. Unfortunately, I just shared with you everything I know about it so far.)
 
In terms of what makes one TR4 worth more than another, the more options, the better.

Very good: Surrey Top, Overdrive
Good: Wire Wheels, Leather Interior

IRS doesn't seem to have a difference in value, since the benefits are offset by the issues of IRS (rust in the mounting points, etc...)

In terms of values, TR4s in show, but not concours condition, can still be had for under $10K (as long as you're not buying on Ebay.) Good driver TR4s should be had for around $5K. People tend to ask huge amounts, but the actual sales prices are much lower. Right now, TR4s are going for less than TR6s.

As far as what to look for: rust, rust, rust, surface rust, and rust. Look on the frame, sills etc... The engine should have good oil pressure when warm (if it doesn't, check compression.) Interior is expensive to repair.

Basically, with TR4s, the old addage really holds true: buy the best car you can afford, because the cost of restoration is more than the cost of a perfect car.
 
Thanks for the response, very good thoughts. The next question is: how do I tell the difference between the items you said? I don't know what the surrey top is. I'd assume you can tell overdrive by just moving the stick around to 5th gear?

Just looking for info!

Hegg
 
Overdrive is engaged with a column-mounted stalk. You can ensure the OD is on the car by looking under it, and you'll see a second box hooked to the back of the tranny. There is no 5th gear on TR2-6, just OD enabled on 2-4 gears on TR3-TR6 w/ OD equipped.

A surrey top is a fairly rare TR option...it was the industry's first targa top. the back section bolts to the back(but is removable in 15 min) and a hard or soft center section fits in the center. The tops alone are worth a couple grand. A true hard top was also available, but don't confuse an aftermarket fibreglass unit for a steel original.

The most important thing is to make sure the car is in good condition before worrying about options.
 
Here are a few tips regarding rust areas to look for:

From the engine bay, look at the bottom of the firewall (where it meets the floor pan). If possible, look at the floor pan from underneath the car as well. Check the battery shelf area for rust.

Check out the rockers/sills.

Look in the trunk (rust in floor is easy to spot)... Shine a flashlight up in the inside part of the wings and check for rust where inner/outer rear fender pieces mate. Check the trailing edge of the trunk lid for rust.

Check the frame for rust... particularly the leading and trailing pieces.

Shine a light up under the dash and look for rust in that area.

Look for any gaps/seams on the car that are supposed to be there that have been filled (a good reference book would be helpful).

Remember, you will probably only be able to actually see only about 25%-50% of the actual rust on the car without disassembly to some extent (and that's if you are thorough). In other words, the actual extent of the rust will likely be more than twice what you think it is (probably more!).

Good luck!

Kurtis
 
Thanks again. Would you say that if it's a "rustbucket", don't even bother, or is it still worth restoring / fixing as long as the price is right?

I'll try to go look at it soon and get some pics. Then I'll have better info. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
"Worth it" is a two-sided discussion.

In terms of true economics, in the overwhelming majority of collector cars, it is cheaper to buy someone else's restoration. You can easily spend $5,000 just fixing rusty panels, frame and fastners on a TR4 rust bucket, and another $2,000 putting on a good paint job. Put in another $3K fixing mechanicals, and $2K on interior. And this is just to get a very nice car to take to a show and shine. You can buy a car of this quality for $7K-$9,500 easily if you look around and haggle just a little with the seller.

Pass-up on rust buckets, and buy a $5000 rust-free, but slightly old restoration car, or shell out $9K for a car you can just drive and enjoy....

....if economics is the key

...if you want to do it all yourself for fun, then toss economics, your checkbook, your marriage and your non-british car friends out the window and get a complete project for the challenge and fun of it. There's nothing wrong with spending extra $$$ on the challenge of a project.

Hobbies are money pits -- skiing, travelling etc... so if you're not in it for the good deal, then don't worry about it.

But I sense you want a good deal and are not up to being completely upside down.
 
Some thoughts...

Surrey tops command more because they're rare, but unless you like that look/drive you might find a ordinary top better, especially if you live where top-down driving is the norm. Also beware of aftermarket surrey tops like the ones currently being peddled on eBay -- I certainly wouldn't pay a dime more for a car with one of these on it.

In theory wire wheels are worth more but old wire wheels can be subject to spline wear if not properly maintained so their value is questionable. Before paying a premium for wires I would consider getting a disc wheel car and converting it to wires (easily done).

Overdrive costs more but is probably worth it if you plan on doing a lot of high speed freeway driving. If you are looking at mostly local touring then perhaps it isn't an expense you need.

I guess you can tell from the above comments, if you can avoid having bodywork & paint needed you will avoid a major expense. The engines are nearly indestructible and fairly easy to maintain/rebuild but unless you are a skilled body & paint guy you can easily get more $$$ into a rusty car than it will ever be worth.

Best thing to do is look at lots of cars, perhaps join a local club, and be in no hurry. There will always be more cars for sale and the value/prices aren't going to go thru the roof overnight. Taking time you'll get to know what the cars are worth and get to know what you really want.
 
Hegg, these guys above who posted that advice are very experienced and knowledgeable, and they're correct.

Plus, here's my ten cents' worth: if you're serious about purchasing one of these cars and you are not fluent with British car restoration, please PAY someone who is to inspect it for you before you buy. Then, buy the best example your budget will allow.

Back up, take a couple of deep breaths and resume your search AFTER you've contacted your local British Car Club for friendly advice. Find someone to assist you with inspections -- it may not cost you a dime, or it might cost $100 bucks. You'll never regret going to these lengths, especially if you aren't familiar with these cars.

There are just too many pitfalls for the uninitiated. Don't buy the first car you see, WAIT for the best example you can afford. And if you can't fix it yourself, don't buy one that needs fixing unless you've got a big budget.

I hope this is helpful, keep asking questions and let us know how it goes!
 
Only to confirm what the other guys have said. I picked up a 67 4A to just fix up and drive. Well that turned out to be a total rebuild, because I just could not put the new part or refurbished piece back on the old. Plus the discovery of rust, rust, and no metal between the door posts and floor. By the time I took it apart I had swept most of the car up in a dust pan. Buying cheap will get you the parts but not a worthy LBC. If you want a hobby project this is a great one. They are one big Mechano set everything bolts off, some harder than others. Kiss the wife and kids goodnight each evening and get lost in the fun of it. Take your time as your bank account and marriage are at stake but a little each year, over time will pay off and lessens the pain. Recommend the OD as it makes for great highway driving. To give you an example, I just put my new 67 4A on the road in May and it took 6 years and (in Cnd $) about 25,000 for a total redo. Driving is great but I do miss those days of doing the project. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/canpatriot.GIF
 
If it's a rust bucket, run (don't walk) away. Believe me, if you think it's a rust bucket before you buy it, it *will* turn out to be worse than you originally suspected.

As others have already stated, the cost to repair a rust bucket will be much greater than the cost of a rust free car. In other words, even if someone gave you a rusted out TR4 (or paid you $1,000 to take it), the cost total cost upon completion would be greater than the cost you could expect to pay for a relatively rust free car.

With that said... As others have already pointed out, many LBC owners actually enjoy the restoration project. If that's your bag, go for it, but keep in mind that you will spend about twice what the car will be worth once complete.

I have a great (very great) appreciation for anyone willing to take a rusted out old Triumph and get it back on the road in restored condition. In a very real sense, this hobby depends on those folks. However, if you want a car to drive sometime in the near future, look for something rust free.

Kurtis
 
Thanks again for the comments. I have a 68 Falcon getting ready for restoration and a 80 TR7 about half done with an engine rebuild. It's a slow but pleasant hobby and I enjoy it. I just don't want, as many have said, to get into a TR4 that's going to be thrown away bit by bit in a dustpan.

I'll let y'all know what I find out when I go look at it.

Hegg
 
Hegg,
I looked for two years for a suitable TR6 to restore. One should never be overzealous about going out and purchasing the first LBC he might run across. You might be lucky and hit it the first time. I looked at over 20 cars in a 200 mile radius before I found one close to home, hiding in a garage. I did a body-on-frame total restoration and had the time of my life. Now cruising is a true joy and I know every noise it makes, and why.

Good luck

Bill
 
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