-
Hi Guest!
You can help ensure that British Car Forum (BCF) continues to provide a great place to engage in the British car hobby! If you find BCF a beneficial community, please consider supporting our efforts with a subscription.
There are some perks with a member upgrade!**Upgrade Now**
(PS: Subscribers don't see this gawd-aweful banner
Hey - did you know if you click on the title of a thread it will take you to the first unread post since you last visited that thread?
but were afraid to ask: 
STOP!! Never post your email address in open forums. Bots can "harvest" your email! If you must share your email use a Private Message or use the 
smilie in place of the real @
Pretty Please - add it to our Events forum(s) and add to the calendar! >> 
TR2/3/3A tr3b
- Thread starter JohnMcDonough
- Start date
Share this page
By the way, someone recently had the audacity to try to trademark the term "survivor." If I remember correctly, it was the Carlisle events group (as in Corvettes at Carlisle.)
prb51,
I'd never use NADA or Blue Book. There are Sports Car Market (Keith Martin's publication,) Old Car Price Guide, and a host of other publications that come out monthly, quarterly and annually, both from the US and UK.
While I do agree that last year was somewhat of a slow year for sales of most classic autos, it is unfathomable that a car from the early 60s would see that type of appreciation in one year at this point in time.
Occasionally I look at NADA dealer's edition for used cars, but for collector cars, NADA and Kelly's BB are pretty useless.
There are certainly some auction anomolies, like, say a $3.3M Oldsmobile or yesterday's $1.5M 4-door Buick. (Can you say "shill bidder?") I just don't see reports of actual sales prices to support your numbers. (I see asking prices, but those are two very different monsters.)
prb51,
I'd never use NADA or Blue Book. There are Sports Car Market (Keith Martin's publication,) Old Car Price Guide, and a host of other publications that come out monthly, quarterly and annually, both from the US and UK.
While I do agree that last year was somewhat of a slow year for sales of most classic autos, it is unfathomable that a car from the early 60s would see that type of appreciation in one year at this point in time.
Occasionally I look at NADA dealer's edition for used cars, but for collector cars, NADA and Kelly's BB are pretty useless.
There are certainly some auction anomolies, like, say a $3.3M Oldsmobile or yesterday's $1.5M 4-door Buick. (Can you say "shill bidder?") I just don't see reports of actual sales prices to support your numbers. (I see asking prices, but those are two very different monsters.)
prb51
Luke Skywalker
Offline
Sam, I agree that most nice TR3's go for 15k or whatever, these are normally #3 cars. Nice but #3. The thread started and asked for the $ figure for a concours car, a number 1. So I based my response on that query. I totally disagree with your assesment that there are different gradings of 'concours' cars, that is totally incorrect and a popular attitude among car dealers as it supports whatever pricing they feel comfortable with. We use a system of; excellence, very good, good, fair, poor to grade the many systems of a vehicle. Concours = excellence in every aspect. It does not matter if the paint shows original factory orange peel or not, it cost's the same to spray as a glassy smooth job. I'm not sure if you are a dealer but most in the business grossly overrate the vehicles they represent, they are not 3rd parties but profit from the evaluation they place on a vehicle. From Barrett Jackson to the local tin pusher it's a 'once in a lifetime' deal. We do not have a dog in that fight. Honest to God #1 TR3's will bring over 20K. They are very rare, do not sell on ebay or used car lot's, but they do exist and are appreciated for their excellence. Finis
Not a dealer -- a collector car columnist. I'm also trained to be a concours judge, although I must admit that I've never put it to use...mostly because I've never enjoyed it, nor do I like the politics that come with judging.
I think you might have misunderstood me -- while there is only one value for concours -- a number one 99-to-100 point car, what constitues a concours car by owners, and even clubs, is all over the place. In this sense, we are in total agreement. My point specifically is that what appraisers consider "concours" is different than those who own, restore, sell, and now - very importantly judge for specific clubs and events.
I generally give an over-simplification of definition of concours-quality valuation: "if you spent $100-200K on the best quality restoration, this is what the car would be worth." Of course, I know people who have spent more on unique, rare and blue-chip car restorations, but this usually makes sense to owners of the Fords, Triumphs, Dodges and Corvettes. (They don't think it's fair, but, as a friend of mine who used to own VW Beetles likes to say "Beetle hobbyists will never learn, and never accept that no matter what they do to their cars, no matter how much they spend, their Beetles are still $5,000 cars.")
99-to-100 point TR3s are not as rare as you seem to think. Especially in the Pacific Northwest, where British cars were extremely popular since new. (The All-British show out here is packed with many concours-quality cars.) You can generally see at least 10 true concours-quality (and far better than new)sidescreen TRs in any given year. In some respects, TRs are one of the easiest cars on which one can do a concours-quality resto (availability of parts, size, removable frame and panels, and the fact that almost 100,000 cars were originally produced, most coming to the US.)
TR3Bs, okay, yes, they are not on every street corner, but certainly not really that rare (3334 originally produced -- and I know of a handfull of concours TR3Bs off hand.)
And again, I'm not saying concours TR3s cannot bring over $20K -- they certainly do on occasion, but they are outweighed by those that don't. I have seen over the last year 99 and 100 point TR3s (TR3As, not Bs, but TR3s, nonetheless) go for sale under $20,000 (not much under $20K, but under $20K -- and these were wire wheel, OD, leather interior cars -- one had a hardtop.)
#3 TR3s tend to be closer to $12K, although, again, I've seen them go higher, but I've seen more #3s go for $10,500 than $15,000. Most of the $15K sidescreens I've seen would be closer to #2 cars -- and have been competitive regional show cars.
There definitely is some regionalism, and Arizona definitely is higher for specific types of cars, British included, (but painfully lower on cars like late 70s Trans Ams.)
So...as an old business cohort of mine used to say "I think we're in violent agreement" on most everything, except for the actual prices. All I can say is that what I have seen with my own two eyes, plus the market guides I get multiple times over each year seem to place the values lower -on average.-
But if someone has a concours TR3, I hope they get more. (If anyone wants to buy my 80-85 point TR3 for $20K, let me know /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif If someone here on the forum is looking for a concours TR3, I hope they get it for $6,000, and we'll all be happy for them. (Jealous, but happy!)
I think you might have misunderstood me -- while there is only one value for concours -- a number one 99-to-100 point car, what constitues a concours car by owners, and even clubs, is all over the place. In this sense, we are in total agreement. My point specifically is that what appraisers consider "concours" is different than those who own, restore, sell, and now - very importantly judge for specific clubs and events.
I generally give an over-simplification of definition of concours-quality valuation: "if you spent $100-200K on the best quality restoration, this is what the car would be worth." Of course, I know people who have spent more on unique, rare and blue-chip car restorations, but this usually makes sense to owners of the Fords, Triumphs, Dodges and Corvettes. (They don't think it's fair, but, as a friend of mine who used to own VW Beetles likes to say "Beetle hobbyists will never learn, and never accept that no matter what they do to their cars, no matter how much they spend, their Beetles are still $5,000 cars.")
99-to-100 point TR3s are not as rare as you seem to think. Especially in the Pacific Northwest, where British cars were extremely popular since new. (The All-British show out here is packed with many concours-quality cars.) You can generally see at least 10 true concours-quality (and far better than new)sidescreen TRs in any given year. In some respects, TRs are one of the easiest cars on which one can do a concours-quality resto (availability of parts, size, removable frame and panels, and the fact that almost 100,000 cars were originally produced, most coming to the US.)
TR3Bs, okay, yes, they are not on every street corner, but certainly not really that rare (3334 originally produced -- and I know of a handfull of concours TR3Bs off hand.)
And again, I'm not saying concours TR3s cannot bring over $20K -- they certainly do on occasion, but they are outweighed by those that don't. I have seen over the last year 99 and 100 point TR3s (TR3As, not Bs, but TR3s, nonetheless) go for sale under $20,000 (not much under $20K, but under $20K -- and these were wire wheel, OD, leather interior cars -- one had a hardtop.)
#3 TR3s tend to be closer to $12K, although, again, I've seen them go higher, but I've seen more #3s go for $10,500 than $15,000. Most of the $15K sidescreens I've seen would be closer to #2 cars -- and have been competitive regional show cars.
There definitely is some regionalism, and Arizona definitely is higher for specific types of cars, British included, (but painfully lower on cars like late 70s Trans Ams.)
So...as an old business cohort of mine used to say "I think we're in violent agreement" on most everything, except for the actual prices. All I can say is that what I have seen with my own two eyes, plus the market guides I get multiple times over each year seem to place the values lower -on average.-
But if someone has a concours TR3, I hope they get more. (If anyone wants to buy my 80-85 point TR3 for $20K, let me know /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif If someone here on the forum is looking for a concours TR3, I hope they get it for $6,000, and we'll all be happy for them. (Jealous, but happy!)
OP
JohnMcDonough
Freshman Member
Offline
Jayhawk: Branson, Missouri is the place the car is being restored
I was surprised when I found out that Branson is a big collector car town. I had a '73 Corvette 454ci 4-spd car that I wound up selling to a nice collector in Branson. (I bought the car, then about a month later found the '69 I now have, and decided to sell the '73 in favor of the '69.)
And Pat, you're absolutely right -- concours judging is a no-win situation. You inevitably make someone mad. In most of the clubs, it became so political, and caused so many fights, that the problem now is that judging has become jokingly soft. (My father-in-law's '48 Lincoln Continental Cabriolet received 94.5 points this summer, and I would have given it about 85-87 points max.)
Now the big thing, though, is the politics of WHO gets to show their cars. Concours committees have a serious problem with picking cars only owned by their friends, that way they can give the class trophies to their buddies, who can then sell their cars with a premium price. I've seen some really great cars snubbed for entry into concourses for lesser cars (quality, history etc.) of the same make and model owned by friends of the concours committee who plan to sell their vehicles in the next year or two.
I do an informal rally club-type of thing here, and I try to stress that people bring out their cars no matter what they look like (the people or the cars!) I've always loved the all-inclusive, no fee, no politics, no attitude events.
And Pat, you're absolutely right -- concours judging is a no-win situation. You inevitably make someone mad. In most of the clubs, it became so political, and caused so many fights, that the problem now is that judging has become jokingly soft. (My father-in-law's '48 Lincoln Continental Cabriolet received 94.5 points this summer, and I would have given it about 85-87 points max.)
Now the big thing, though, is the politics of WHO gets to show their cars. Concours committees have a serious problem with picking cars only owned by their friends, that way they can give the class trophies to their buddies, who can then sell their cars with a premium price. I've seen some really great cars snubbed for entry into concourses for lesser cars (quality, history etc.) of the same make and model owned by friends of the concours committee who plan to sell their vehicles in the next year or two.
I do an informal rally club-type of thing here, and I try to stress that people bring out their cars no matter what they look like (the people or the cars!) I've always loved the all-inclusive, no fee, no politics, no attitude events.
aeronca65t
Great Pumpkin
Offline
Here's a nice article on TR-3 values (from the Moss Motors British Motoring magazine):
https://www.britishmotoring.net/bm0402/trbg/trbg.html
Here's some recent Moss classified ads that include TR-3s:
https://www.britishmotoring.net/bm0402/carmart/carmart.html
I bought my last TR-3 for about $190 (in 1970)...sold it for $75 two years later. It ran pretty good. Oh well.....
https://www.britishmotoring.net/bm0402/trbg/trbg.html
Here's some recent Moss classified ads that include TR-3s:
https://www.britishmotoring.net/bm0402/carmart/carmart.html
I bought my last TR-3 for about $190 (in 1970)...sold it for $75 two years later. It ran pretty good. Oh well.....
OP
JohnMcDonough
Freshman Member
Offline
sammy b. Verrry interesting. I raise sheep as well as take care of MGTD, 69B and 04 Jag. Sheep judging, according to what you are saying, is about the same. Point is wether it has blue,smoke, white smoke or craps in pellets, judging appears to be the same the world over. McD