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TR2/3/3A TR3A Will Not Start

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SteveBones

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Looking for some guidance on getting a TR3 started and running after not running for 10 years. I purchased the car and I have done a bunch of work on it over the last 1.5 years. I am getting so close........to being able to take it for a ride.

Symptom
--------

Will not fire up after running the starter for 15 or 20 seconds. The engine will misfire once during the 15 or 20 second starting period, and spit out a puff of black smoke.

I also sprayed starter fluid inside the carbs with no change. I expect the issue has to do with the spark - timing.

I also rechecked the compression. I have a non screw-in compression gauge. Results showed 150 lbs compression in all four cylinders +/- 2 lbs per.


What work Have I Done?
--------------------

H6 carbs completely rebuilt including new throttle shafts.

New battery.

New points, condenser, and rotor. Used the same distributor cap and wires since they looked to be in good condition.

Rechecked the points gap and timing 3 times using a 12 volt test light. I was careful to make sure the distributor rotor was pointing at #1 piston spark plug wire and the timing mark on the pulley was lined up. Used the Macey's (sp?) garage write up as a guide which was very helpful.

Pulled each spark plug wire to check for a blue spark - All four checked out.

Next Step
--------

Of course I am looking for any recommendations. I do plan to swap out the distributor cap, spark plug wires, and rotor. All three items were not replaced. I will do this later today.

One other issue of question. The rotor I purchased was shorter than the replacement. I ended up putting back the original rotor because the end was close to the contact points inside the distributor cap. The new rotor was purchased from the Roaster Factory along with the points and condenser.

Thanks,

Please let me know if there is any additional info needed.

Steve
 
Steve, are you getting fuel to the carburetors and then to the cylinders? I'd almost expect plugs to be wet with fuel if you've been spinning the engine over long enough.

Meanwhile, if you've got good spark at each plug lead, the ignition system likely is ok for now, but the static timing might be off. (Also, double check the firing order; you will NOT have been the first person to put the wires on, say, 1-2-4-3 instead of the correct 1-3-4-2!! :blush: )
 
<what Andy said> :iagree:

Also, any chance the distributor was put in 180 degrees off?

By the way, the Roaster Factory is better known for turkeys and chickens :jester:

(but ... when I got a new rotor from The Roadster Factory, I thought it was too high also. Wrong. It was just tighter than the old one, and I hadn't pushed it down enough when I installed it.)

Tom
 
Andrew,

Looks to be getting fuel to the carbs and engine. The plugs are black and wet. I took a wire brush to clean them, but have not tried to restart. It might be that I am getting too much fuel. I did have the choke pulled out to the end.

Regarding the firing order, I did check this a few times to confirm it is 1-3-4-2 based on the rotor moving counter clockwise.

Thanks for the suggestions. I am thinking that it is either an issue with the distributor, the fuel setting too rich, or maybe the coil.

I am also wondering if I might have installed the points and condenser incorrectly.

My next step will be to replace the distributor cap, wires, and rotor and try to restart without using the choke.


Thanks,

Steve

Andrew Mace said:
Steve, are you getting fuel to the carburetors and then to the cylinders? I'd almost expect plugs to be wet with fuel if you've been spinning the engine over long enough.

Meanwhile, if you've got good spark at each plug lead, the ignition system likely is ok for now, but the static timing might be off. (Also, double check the firing order; you will NOT have been the first person to put the wires on, say, 1-2-4-3 instead of the correct 1-3-4-2!! :blush: )
Click to expand...
 
I'll second what Tom said. The trick is to be certain that #1 cylinder is between the compression and power strokes when the rotor is pointing to it; which you cannot tell just by looking at the marks. (The marks will also line up when #1 is at TDC between exhaust and intake.)

If I remember right, you can look down the oil filler cap while turning the engine, to see if either of the valves on #1 are moving as you turn the engine up to the marks. If so, you need to go another full rotation to get #1 ready to fire. Then check where the rotor is pointing. If you can't see the valves down the hole, then you'll have to remove the cover.

FWIW, I had exactly the same problem with my first TR. Took me and a buddy most of a week to figure out the problem! The really strange part was that it had been "running when parked". Turns out the DCO (dumb current owner aka me) had started the process by swapping the dizzy cap & wires with "known good" ones that had the firing order shifted by 180 degrees. We cranked, and cranked, even towed it for awhile and heated up the coolant! It would sneeze and snort and generally act like it wanted to run, but just never quite get going.
 
Thanks guys,

This makes sense to me based on how off the car is when trying to start. I will use the approach of looking at the #1 cylinder valves to make sure they are moving at the TDC mark. I really believe this is likely the issue. I have in past been able to get motors to run even when there were adjustment issues, even a blown head gasket on a non Triumph car. Since this TR3A is not even close to starting, and is getting fuel, it would make sense that the timing is off 180 degrees. I will be able to check it out later this evening.

Thank you all very much for your suggestions!

Steve

TR3driver said:
I'll second what Tom said. The trick is to be certain that #1 cylinder is between the compression and power strokes when the rotor is pointing to it; which you cannot tell just by looking at the marks. (The marks will also line up when #1 is at TDC between exhaust and intake.)

If I remember right, you can look down the oil filler cap while turning the engine, to see if either of the valves on #1 are moving as you turn the engine up to the marks. If so, you need to go another full rotation to get #1 ready to fire. Then check where the rotor is pointing. If you can't see the valves down the hole, then you'll have to remove the cover.

FWIW, I had exactly the same problem with my first TR. Took me and a buddy most of a week to figure out the problem! The really strange part was that it had been "running when parked". Turns out the DCO (dumb current owner aka me) had started the process by swapping the dizzy cap & wires with "known good" ones that had the firing order shifted by 180 degrees. We cranked, and cranked, even towed it for awhile and heated up the coolant! It would sneeze and snort and generally act like it wanted to run, but just never quite get going.
Click to expand...
 
My first thought was the distributor is 180 off. BUT, even if that's the case, you should be getting some indication of gas exploding... woof, pop, etc. I'd start with new plugs. The old ones have to be soaked - fouled..
 
I think he did get a pop which he called a "misfire and a puff of black smoke"
That's exactly the way my TR6 engine reacted when I had the distributor drive gear 180 off.
I did that by mistaking the valves on the rock rather than both solidly closed.
 
Thanks for the input. Just confirming I did get a misfire and a puff of black smoke. I also have new plugs with the gaps set. I will let you know what I find out later today. Thanks again for the suggestions.


poolboy said:
I think he did get a pop which he called a "misfire and a puff of black smoke"
That's exactly the way my TR6 engine reacted when I had the distributor drive gear 180 off.
I did that by mistaking the valves on the rock rather than both solidly closed.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Randall,

I did follow up on your suggestion below. I confirmed that with the TDC mark lined up, and the #1 cylinder is between compression and power (neither of the #1 valves are open), that the timing looks to be set correctly.

I am not clear on knowing when the timing is off by 180 degrees. If the timing was off would either of the #1 cylinder valves be opened at TDC, AND the rotor would be pointing to #4 spark plug wire?

One more item I did find. On the distributor base plate, the screw that connects the ground wire was loose (stripped). I was able to tighten the skew. Would this cause a problem with the engine not starting?

I wanted to check and confirm what I found before I re install the plugs and try to restart the car.

Thanks,

Steve
TR3driver said:
I'll second what Tom said. The trick is to be certain that #1 cylinder is between the compression and power strokes when the rotor is pointing to it; which you cannot tell just by looking at the marks. (The marks will also line up when #1 is at TDC between exhaust and intake.)

If I remember right, you can look down the oil filler cap while turning the engine, to see if either of the valves on #1 are moving as you turn the engine up to the marks. If so, you need to go another full rotation to get #1 ready to fire. Then check where the rotor is pointing. If you can't see the valves down the hole, then you'll have to remove the cover.

FWIW, I had exactly the same problem with my first TR. Took me and a buddy most of a week to figure out the problem! The really strange part was that it had been "running when parked". Turns out the DCO (dumb current owner aka me) had started the process by swapping the dizzy cap & wires with "known good" ones that had the firing order shifted by 180 degrees. We cranked, and cranked, even towed it for awhile and heated up the coolant! It would sneeze and snort and generally act like it wanted to run, but just never quite get going.
Click to expand...
 
If you have wire brushed the spark plugs it is now time to purchase new ones. The wire brush will leave metal streaks on the ceramic insulator and cause shorting across the insulator and improper firing of the fuel.
 
SteveBones said:
I am not clear on knowing when the timing is off by 180 degrees. If the timing was off would either of the #1 cylinder valves be opened at TDC, AND the rotor would be pointing to #4 spark plug wire?
Click to expand...
No, that would be normal. #4 is supposed to fire when #1 is at TDC between exhaust and intake. Note that the valves aren't open by very much, you might have to use a feeler gauge to tell the difference if you can't watch them while turning the engine.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]
One more item I did find. On the distributor base plate, the screw that connects the ground wire was loose (stripped). I was able to tighten the skew. Would this cause a problem with the engine not starting?[/QUOTE]
Definitely a possibility, but if so it would prevent you from getting spark.

It is also very easy to install the points wrong, again you certainly would not be the first to introduce a new problem while trying to fix an old one :laugh: The leads to the condenser and coil have to go _under_ the plastic top hat, not on top of it.

Also worth noting that a bad condenser can sometimes produce enough voltage to cause a spark with the plugs out of the engine, but not with them installed. It takes more voltage to jump the gap under compression than in free air.

Ditto a bad coil.

And lastly, don't pull my favorite trick and leave the rotor laying on the fender!
 
Everyone has hit all the points I can think of...except it is possible a PO installed the front pulley so TDC is not TDC. Since it sounds like the plugs are out, you may want to check to make sure the #1 piston is up with the timing mark at TDC.

The spark in these is not stellar, even with everything new and perfect, so a wet plug is often enough to snuff it out. After you have all the checks done and are read to try again, make sure the plugs are clean and dry.

Best of luck!

John
 
I think Randall may be right about the dist wires at the plastic top hat might being installed wrong. That's all you would need for a no start in that area.
 
CJD said:
Everyone has hit all the points I can think of...except it is possible a PO installed the front pulley so TDC is not TDC. Since it sounds like the plugs are out, you may want to check to make sure the #1 piston is up with the timing mark at TDC.

The spark in these is not stellar, even with everything new and perfect, so a wet plug is often enough to snuff it out. After you have all the checks done and are read to try again, make sure the plugs are clean and dry.

Best of luck!

John
Click to expand...

Good advice. I am certainly learning as I go. I did check to make sure that the pulley mark, # 1 Spark location, and the #1 cylinder valves were closed all at the same spot. Using Randall's suggestion, I pulled the oil filler cap off and looked at the #1 cylinder valve rockers to verify. I noticed that prior to TDC one valve rocker was moving and that the second valve rocker would start moving shorty after TDC. This was a good check.

Also, I have been more diligent about cleaning the wet spark plugs after each attempt.

I did noticed that the spark plug wire caps where not pressed down all the way. After correcting this I was convinced I had solved my problem. Unfortunately I still am seeing the same single mis fire during a 15 second period of trying to start the engine.

I am wondering if there might be an issue with the coil and if this would cause the spark to not be strong enough. I have another known good coil that I will plan to swap out and see what happens.

Thanks again for the ideas. I am thinking that there might be sometime that I am missing and will just need to keep pursuing.

Thanks,

Steve
 
Good point. I have done this in the past so I am aware that it will result in the engine not starting. I need to check this again to make sure I have this assembled correctly. I looked at it and it appeared to be OK. I will undo it just to make sure. Thanks for the suggestion. I will look at this again later tonight.

Because the engine is not close to starting and the compression is good, I really believe there is something obvious that I keep missing regarding the ignition and timing. I just need to keep looking.

Steve
 
Have you at least tried reinstalling the spark plug wires 180* from their present location in the cap ?
 
SteveBones said:
Using Randall's suggestion, I pulled the oil filler cap off and looked at the #1 cylinder valve rockers to verify. I noticed that prior to TDC one valve rocker was moving and that the second valve rocker would start moving shorty after TDC. This was a good check.
Click to expand...
Actually, that sounds to me as though you are in the wrong place. When the cylinder is ready to fire, both valves are closed for nearly one half revolution before TDC and also one half revolution after TDC.

Try rolling it around and compare what you see.

PS, another way to check : if the cylinder was ready to fire then the exhaust valve will be the first to move as you turn the engine forward. If you were 180 degrees away, then the intake valve moves first.
 
I agree.
What SteveBones describes sounds to me like valves 1 & 2 are on the rock and the piston, although near the top, is not ready for ignition.

"Have you at least tried reinstalling the spark plug wires 180* from their present location in the cap ?"
 
Hi Randall,

Regarding your PS comment below, I need to reconfirm. I recall that the intake valve moved first which would verify the timing is off 180 degrees. I am not sure what I would need to do to correct this. I have rechecked the TDC mark is lined up along with the distributor rotor pointing to 1# cylinder distributor wire.

It does appear the PO did some engine work where the engine pulley could have been removed and remounted incorrectly.

I will check tomorrow and let you know what I find.

Thanks,

Steve


TR3driver said:
SteveBones said:
Using Randall's suggestion, I pulled the oil filler cap off and looked at the #1 cylinder valve rockers to verify. I noticed that prior to TDC one valve rocker was moving and that the second valve rocker would start moving shorty after TDC. This was a good check.
Click to expand...
Actually, that sounds to me as though you are in the wrong place. When the cylinder is ready to fire, both valves are closed for nearly one half revolution before TDC and also one half revolution after TDC.

Try rolling it around and compare what you see.

PS, another way to check : if the cylinder was ready to fire then the exhaust valve will be the first to move as you turn the engine forward. If you were 180 degrees away, then the intake valve moves first.
Click to expand...
 
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