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TR2/3/3A TR3A Starter Problems - Help!!

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charles

charles

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Hello. I am having the hardest time re-installing a starter. I get it in the engine, but it wont seem to engage the flywheel. I havent installed any shimms in it because i have been unable to find where i should put them or how big they should be. My electrical system itself is clean, sending the proper current, and is in great shape. The starter has been rebuilt (just now) and a brand new solenoid. This tr3 has been changed over from a neg ground system. We tested the started with both negative and positive grounding and it seems to spin out the gear all the way, HOWEVER it wont turn the engine. The hand crank also seems to be very hard to turn ( not even a full turn at once) but will turn all the way. I dont know who the original owner was, but my father owned it before me, he had somebody else working on it at one time and it ran for a while. The last time I tried to start the car before i had the starter rebuilt, it was engaging but not starting and then the starter made a high whining sound and, to my knowledge, stopped engaging the ring gear. Because of this i cleaned the elec connections, replaced battery, solenoid, and sent my starter away to be rebuilt. Upon putting it all back together, it makes the same high winding noise it did before and still wont turn over the engine. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif Im not too sure the mechanic properly converted the ground, but all the elec seems fine. Any help or comments or pictures would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you

Ill post some pics of the car soon....
 
Get a few pics posted and and hang on. There are some excellent TR3 guys here who will help you.
 
I wonder if one of your pistons is frozen to the liner, from sitting all this time? Some Marvel Mystery Oil in to the pistons for a couple days might help free your engine, making it easier to rotate, and easier for the starter to do its thing.... just a WAG, let's see what others think. Another thought, do you have a good ground? The TR3 has a ground at the driver's side motor mount. I'd check to see that it's there. At least you've come to the right place
 
Inspect the starter ring gear teeth on the flywheel for damage. You can do this through the starter hole with a flashlight and mirror or by removing the inspection plate on the bottom of the gearbox bellhousing.
 
Charles - welcome to the family. I just finished (two days ago!) replacing my TR3A starter.

It would *really* help to know the commission number (TS# on the plate to the left of the battery box) and see the type of starter you're using (pic?).

Edit: From what I recall reading, a shim will pull an early, bullet-nose starter gear back away from the ring gear. A shim will pull a later model starter gear closer to the ring gear.

Here's a link to some starter pics I put together:

https://www.mgexperience.net/journal/tmorehouse/1203

Ask away - and please give us some more info!

Tom
 
Try putting the car in reverse and push it a couple of feet. Then try the starter. The starter might have gotten stuck in the ring gear (indicating the need for a shim for proper angle of alignment between the starter gear and the ring gear.) Use a shim on one side of the starter mounting or the other to correct the angle.
 
As noted, verify the body-to-engine ground strap or as a temporary band-aid some ground the battery to the engine.

The starter doesn't care about polarity so that isn't an issue at this point.

You say the electrics are clean... but pay special attention to the stud & nut where the big cable attaches to the body of the starter. That should be clean almost to the point of being shiny.

All this assumes your battery is strong... what you have described could be attributed to a weak battery.

Of course the (new) solenoid should click noticably when engaged or perhaps you're using the button on the back of it.

You might try removing the plugs to make the engine easy to turn over -- then try the hand crank -- should spin with minimal effort -- then try the starter. This is a good idea anyway if the engine has sat a long spell as it will get the oil pumping thru w/o the stress of a running engine.
 
Could it be that the starter is spinning the ring gear on the flywheel {hence the whining sound}?
One thing I would do is find out why the engine is so hard to turn over, by removing the spark plugs and try turning it over without them. If it is still exceptionaly hard to turn over I would be looking for the cause.
My 56 TR-3 doesn`t have any shims, never has had any shims of any sort. But then it has an O.E.M. starter on it too.
 
Geo Hahn said:
As noted, verify the body-to-engine ground strap or as a temporary band-aid some ground the battery to the engine.
Click to expand...

I agree that it could be a grounding issue. Had the exact problem on my 3A and even bought a new battery /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

A proper engine to chassis ground which is usually at the left side motor mount bolt to the frame, as well as the battery ground cable to firewall fixed my problem.

A bad ground may have enough voltage to spin the starter motor (whirring sound) but not enough amperage to engage the solenoid to the flywheel and spin the engine.
 
thanks guys i will try these all tomorrow and see what i get. i wish i knew how to post pic of it here because it is one sweet looking car. Well a little more info about the car: well my father got this car in 59 and it sat in a barn for one heck of a long time. then about 5 years ago he had it fix by someone to try and get it running again. i dont know why he would have someone else work on it, i mean half the fun of having an TR3 is restoring it. well sadly after my father had it fixed he let the car sit and fall back apart again. this really [censored] me off, i mean to let a car like this go to heck after fixing it, so i took it from him and now i am putting all my free time and money back into it. i have this real nice book my father had that shows me just about every piece and how to take it apart, its really nice and helpful for me. but if u ask me the best advice comes from guys like you all and thanks for your input. i am new to working on older cars but its been real fun so far, and i only have this starter problem so far, well i need new tires to but the frame, body, and interior is perfect. i think all i need to do is fix this starter problem that is giving me one heck of a time and hopefully not to many seals have rotted and then i am off for some good times

i going to try and link my yahoo pic of my TR3 hope that works if not any ideas would be most helpful and as for the TS# its TS46887L (i hope i wrote that down right) i think the hardest thing for me on reparing this TR3 is that i have no place but my father house to work on it, but its not that bad

https://new.photos.yahoo.com/msieglitz/album/576460762395131151

this album should be open to the public
 
Question to the group: Charles says he had the starter rebuilt and "This tr3 has been changed over from a neg ground system". Not sure what that means.

If the starter were running "backwards" the pinion gear wouldn't be pushed out, would it? If the starter runs correctly, it thrusts into the ring gear.

Unless there's some grounding issue ("changed over from a negative ground system"???), I'm betting the battery and/or cables aren't giving a full charge to the starter, so the gear isn't thrust far enough. The bullet nose w/o shim would thrust forward about 7/8 inch, meshing fully with the ring gear.

Tom
 
Don't think the starter is the kind of motor that will run backwards regardless of polarity.
 
PeterK said:
Don't think the starter is the kind of motor that will run backwards regardless of polarity.
Click to expand...

That's what I think too. But the "converted from negative ground" statement gets me wondering if some cabling isn't connected properly. If the grounding is "converted", shouldn't the car have been converted TO negative ground?

T.
 
COnversion from pos to neg on a TR3 just involves flipping the battery cables, re-polarizing the dynamo (generator) and flipping the coil wires. We really don't know what he did without more info. If he tried to hooks it up in reverse, then he would have fried something and the starter backwards but it still wouldn't spin in reverse because of the motor windings (and it would probably be fried).

My bet is still on a bad ground. It's common.
 
Charles says that the starter emits a high-piched whine. This tells me that the starter is rotating, but the pinion gear is not meshing with the ring gear on the flywheel.

The pinion gear is thrown out mechanically as the starter rotates, not electrically by a solenoid. Wouldn't a bad ground cause the starter to rotate the engine slowly? It would have symptoms similar to a low battery.

Charles says that on a bench test, the pinion gear extends. Since the engine doesn't turn when the starter turns, I'm thinking that the pinion is not meshing with the ring gear. The pinion teeth look O.K. The ring gear teeth look a little "buggered-up" in one photo.

I think all the positive ground/negative ground stuff is a Red Herring.
 
John - I agree - I think the problem is "weak current". Starter spins, but not fast enough to thrust that pinion gear out fully.

Tom
 
ok guys you been real helpful to me, so let me tell u a little more of what i am finding out

1 i never converted the system over from a pos to a neg ground system the guy my dad had working on it did, so do you guys think i should change the wires on the coil?

2 i removed the spark plugs and try using the crank starter, thank god it moved really easy

3 i looked at the grounds well the neg ground to the battery is almost like new and is bolted right above the battery tray to the right (driver side firewall) this looks good to me.

4 well i took a real good look at the neg ground for the starter, this thing looks like it been through heck and back so i am going to replace it.

let me get some more pic for you all, and replace the neg ground to the starter, and i will get back to you all with new info

a few question i have

is there a way that i some how am putting this starter in wrong???
and will it hurt the engine for me to try starting it up without the plugs in??????

thanks everyone with your input it been very helpful i will get back with you all in a few
 
You need to look for the ground between the engine block and the chassis. It should be on the driver side of the front engine mounting plate bolt and run downward to one of the engine mounts. Why? The battery, as you said, is grounded to the body. But the starter is connected to the engine and insulated from the body by body mounting pads. So the second grounding braid completes the ground from the battery (thought the body)to the front ground braid and finally to the engine. The starter only has one connection and the ground travels through the engine to find ground.

Forget about the coil stuff. If your Dad had it done, then assume it's done. Just work on the starter conections.
 
charles said:
...as for the TS# its TS46887L...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the photos, can see why you're anxious to get it running. Build date was around Monday 4/13/59 I think.

FWIW - the starter will make a whining/whirring sound if the rubber pinion drive thing (whazzit it called?) has failed. Shouldn't be that way on a freshly rebuilt starter but stranger things have happened.
 
Aloha Charles,

I think Geo has solved the problem, the sleeve assembly in the starter has failed. In the bomb shell starter like you have, the starter motor is connected to the starter pinion by this rubber filled sleeve. The indented purpose is for the rubber to take up the shock as the pinion engages the ring gear. Over time the rubber will perish and the starter motor will spin (whirring sound) but no motion is transfered to the pinion so the engine does not turn over. In my experience, the early symptoms of this problem is very sluggish starting (slow engine turn over) and the eventual failure. The part seems to be available now from the big LBC suppliers. Moss Motors for example has it as part # 549-580.

Since it appears that you have the starter out of the car, it should be easy to check if this is the problem. Remove the long screws from the commutator end of the starter and then take the bull nose shroud off to expose the starter pinion. Twist the pinion so that it is extended and if you can continue to turn the pinion and the motor end is not turning. the rubber has perished in the sleeve assembly.
 
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