TR2/3/3A TR3A no brakes

[Raferty12]

Just fired up for the first time after a long winter. Car runs well, but doesn't stop to well. First time backing out of the garage, brake pedal went to the floor. Fluid seems to be up to correct level, but not sure. Thanks for any HELP!

 

[Andrew Mace]

Do they "pump up" at all? and are there any obvious leaks/puddles?

 

[NutmegCT]

Welcome to BCF!

Assuming the brakes worked fine *before* winter ...

Any traces of brake fluid on the ground underneath?

Or under the wheels or master cylinder?

When's the last time the system was bled?

If there were no other obvious symptoms, I'd probably bleed the system - especially before driving it again. How high up in the reservoir is the fluid now?

Tom

 

[Raferty12]

Hi Tom,

thanks for your quick reply. had the car four years, never bled system. Brakes worked well before winter. No traces of fluid anywhere, floor or Master Cylinder. fluid level is about 3/4.

Do you think bleeding will do it or does it sound like the Master Cylinder needs to be rebuilt? Thanks.

Raf

 

[Raferty12]

Hi,

Thanks for your quick reply. No, they don't pump up at all. No traces of fluid anywhere.

Thanks,

Raf

 

[Andrew Mace]

I get the feeling it is the master cylinder. More often in my experience, they leak externally (down the pedal, around where they mount under the hood, etc.), but they can leak internally as well. A rebuild is quick and easy, so long as the bore is ok.

If someone pumps the pedal while you watch the reservoir, do you see any bubbling? That might be an indication of an internal leak/failure of the master.

 

[Moseso]

If any seal has failed, (need for rebuild) there will be fluid somewhere. On the master it comes out where the push-rod goes in. At the front discs it comes out around the pistons in the caliper, behind the pads. At the rear it comes out from under the rubber cap on the slave cylinder.

Bleeding 'em can't hurt -- but it would be very mysterious for a bubble big enough to create the symptoms you've described to materialize over the winter -- and not see any leakage.

One more question to add to the collection: Does the clutch work alright?

 

[NutmegCT]

Raf - as we don't know how high the fluid was before winter, I think I'd first bleed the entire system, one step at a time. If you do an advanced search here at BCF (top of the page), you can find many suggestions on proper bleeding procedures.

At present, I don't see a reason to rebuild the m/c, especially as there seem to be no leaks. You've looked under the hubcaps and on the inside of each wheel, right? to see if there are traces of fluid leakage?

Maybe over winter the air in the system has consolidated, leading to that "pedal to the floor" situation. Is your car pretty much stock? any modifications?

Some guys suggest a purging of the entire system and adding new fluid every few years.

Tom

 

[Raferty12]

Yes, the clutch is fine.

Raf

 

[Raferty12]

Hello Moseso,

I have a question about the brake/clutch fluid resivor. It is about 3/4 full, but there is another smaller cylinder in the center of the resivor that extends up from the bottom. It is about 3/4 to 1" in diameter. It looks like it had fluid in it at one time, but it is empty now. the top of it is just a smidge below the max fill line marked on the outside of the resivor. Should there be fluid in this part of the resivor?

Thanks,

Raf

 

[Moseso]

Yes. And it's apparently hooked up backwards. The center section should contain the fluid for the clutch. The outer section should be hooked up to the brake master.

It's baffled that way so you can see which system is leaking. You already know that now. The clutch works -- the brakes don't. And, the part of the reservoir feeding the brake system is empty. You need to look more closely for where the brake fluid's getting out. The fact that it got out is no longer in question.

 

[Raferty12]

OK, thanks a ton.

Should I reverse the hook ups between the brakes and clutch before I go any further. Or is it ok to leave them the way they are, which is how they've been since I bought the car in 2004.

I started bleeding the brakes with the left rear and a little fluid comes out, but it's mostly (probably 90%) air. Probably because that center resivor is empty, right. I'm really a neophite when it comes to this stuff. Sorry.

Raf

 

[NutmegCT]

You might want to hold off on bleeding the system until the reservoir and missing fluid situation clears up. But you've obviously discovered a major part of the problem. Air doesn't activate the brakes!

The other guys know a heck of a lot more about these things than I do, so I'll let them pilot you through the fog.

Congrats on getting intimately involved in your TR3!

Tom
PS - when you got the car back in 2004, was it by any chance a "professional restoration"?

 

[TR3driver]

Should I reverse the hook ups between the brakes and clutch before I go any further.

I would, although it's not likely you'll have a problem either way. The concept is that the brakes require a larger reservoir, because the caliper pistons stay extended further as the pads wear. That means more fluid stays in the calipers, and you don't want the reservoir to run dry (as you've discovered).

But you also need to identify where the leak is, and fix that. Since you didn't see an obvious puddle, the MC is the most likely suspect (as a leak from it will run down the pedals and out into the driver's floor). However, the rear brakes frequently trap enough fluid inside the drum and wheel to not leave an obvious puddle on the floor.

BTW, the divider also helps prevent a clutch failure from leading to brake failure as well.

 

[Andrew Mace]

BTW, the divider also helps prevent a clutch failure from leading to brake failure as well.

Probably reason enough to ensure that the correct chamber feeds the correct circuit in each case, as I'd say it's (arguably) a bit easier and safer to drive a car without clutch hydraulics than it is one with no brakes!

 

[tdskip]

Raf - can you take a couple pictures and most them here? Posting pictures of the problem/question can help with diagnosis and path. Just a heads-up.

Might be worth while pulling the rear wheels to see if you have, as Randall suggested, leaking from the rear cylinders.

Welcome BTW!

 

[Raferty12]

Thanks everybody. All suggestions are great. I pulled the left rear yesterday; no leaks there. I'll get to the right side today. I checked everywhere else suggested in all the replys I received; also had a friend doublecheck. We found no visible leaks. Weird. I think I'm going to bleed the brakes first, just to get the hang of it. Then, if they come up to where they were previously, I switch the cylinder connections. I suppose I'll have to bleed the clutch hydraulics as well then. Then I'll spend the next day or so getting my fingernails clean again.

Thanks again for all the help.

Regards,

Raferty

 

[vivdownunder]

Be really careful that you feel secure with the brakes after bleeding because what's happened is not normal, and indicates a problem. As one who's had total brake failure at speed in the TR3A due to a minute score in the master cylinder, I can say with certainty it's not a fun experience. There's no split system to save the day, just the trusty handbrake.

If you've got a carpet front floor, double check that the missing fluid isn't hiding under it as Randall suggested, as I've seen that before.

For not many dollars, I'd be getting the M/C rebuilt our renewed for sure.

Viv.

 

[Twosheds]

I'm really a neophite when it comes to this stuff. Sorry.

Raf

Buy a shop manual.

And use it.

 

[HerronScott]

Be really careful that you feel secure with the brakes after bleeding because what's happened is not normal, and indicates a problem. As one who's had total brake failure at speed in the TR3A due to a minute score in the master cylinder, I can say with certainty it's not a fun experience. There's no split system to save the day, just the trusty handbrake.

Definitely agree having also had a brake failure on my TR4A at speed (brake hose failed).

Scott