TR2/3/3A TR3A Engine Wont Turn

[TR3driver]

Crank has to be ground to accept the lip type seal; but shouldn't have any effect on the bolt clearance.

IMO, just the wrong bolts. Maybe worked in the motor they came out of, but still longer than they should be.

 

[glemon]

RE: Replacing nuts and bolts

I may fall on the other end of the extreme here, but I have owned and worked on british cars for all my driving life which is now over 30 years, for the first 15 or so they were my daily drivers. I have never raced, but have autocrossed, and though I have probably slowed down a little and tempered my driving enthusiasm over the years, I still take em to the redline and wind them out occasionally.

I re-use bolts and nuts unless they look to be stripped, corroded or otherwise damaged (or the more likely event where I can't find the ones I took off!). I have never had a major component fail or break due to a broken nut or bolt, when I rebuild things I replace the wear items, bushings and bearings. rubber parts, I am aware of the concept of metal fatigue, but also aware of defects in new parts, so somewhat of a crapshoot either way, if a stationery part has done its bit for 40 years or so and appears unharmed I sort of assume it is up to the task for a few more years.

To each his own, your mileage may vary, I don't fault people for doing it, but I for one I not so sure you have to do it.

My LBC dollars are not unmlimited and my car needs and wants many, I just don't choose to spend them that way, and quite frankly even if I had more $ probably wouldn't.

I guess I am just writing this as a counterpoint to the people suggesting all bolts be replaced--maybe it will put someone who didn't follow that advice's mind at ease that there motor is not likely to grenade the next time they turn the key. And certainly there may be instances where it is well documented that there is a weak point that needs a stronger piece on a particular car or motor, wouldn't ignore that, but just don't feel it is at all necessary as a matter of course.

 

[rlandrum]

Got the clutch off last night and removed the four bolts. The engine turned with no problems. I installed lock washers (rather than tabs) and the engine still turns without interference from the bolts.

I should have the tranny re-installed tonight.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. They were all right on the money, as usual!

 

[angelfj1]

Frank,
I missed that thread.
When I put my flywheel back on I didn't even know there could be an issue and I didn't have any lock tabs so reused the original bolts with locktite.
I just looked at a friends rebuilt 3a motor and there is at least 3/16th clearance in that area if not more. The tabs are 1/8" or less which would still leave some room.
Now if someone had 'faced' the crank or flywheel mating area that could reduce the gap or improper thrust washers.
Did you originally have the bolts/tabs or the stretch bolts?
I'm sure the Landrums will replace the long bolts (they're not sure they are original anyway as to length) with the right stuff.
So the original bolts locked into the seal body?

go here https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/507860/Re_Stuck_Engine_Help#Post507759
one of the bolts was just a bit too long.

 

[angelfj1]

Don't take this the wrong way but don't you think it would be prudent to use brand new bolts and tab wahers? Just a suggestion.

In general, we have used new bolts and nuts everywhere.

However, the bolts used in the crank are not of the three standard sizes I have on hand (1/4, 5/16, 3/8, both course and fine). As I recall, they were 7/16. And they appeared in good enough condition to re-use without worry. Added to that is the fact that we were anxious to get the engine in the frame and the decision was made to make-do with the existing bolts.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Rob: please use new bolts and tab locking washers.

 

[TR3driver]

I re-use bolts and nuts unless they look to be stripped, corroded or otherwise damaged (or the more likely event where I can't find the ones I took off!).

FWIW, I'm with you. The vast majority of fasteners in our cars are not stressed anywhere close to where metal fatigue becomes an issue. Plus in some cases the original fasteners were special in some way that might not be visible to the naked eye (or to aftermarket suppliers). Lacking the facilities to test for tensile strength or hardness or fatigue life, etc. I feel safer using factory hardware.

There are some things I replace frequently, like Nyloc nuts and lockwashers; but general bolts & nuts get reused forever (unless damaged, of course).

BTW, the consensus among racers seems to be that it's a really bad idea to use lockwashers on flywheel bolts. I don't recall the exact argument offhand, but those guys have spent a lot of time trying to keep flywheels and cranks bolted together under the harshest possible conditions, so I suspect they know what they're talking about. ISTR Kas Kastner mentioned measuring over .600" (yes, over 1/2 inch!) deflection at the rim of the flywheel, so those bolts do lead a really hard life.

Supposedly, that's even why the factory eventually deleted the locktabs; as they are soft enough to eventually pound out and let the bolt loosen, even though it doesn't turn.

 

[angelfj1]

I re-use bolts and nuts unless they look to be stripped, corroded or otherwise damaged (or the more likely event where I can't find the ones I took off!).

FWIW, I'm with you. The vast majority of fasteners in our cars are not stressed anywhere close to where metal fatigue becomes an issue. Plus in some cases the original fasteners were special in some way that might not be visible to the naked eye (or to aftermarket suppliers). Lacking the facilities to test for tensile strength or hardness or fatigue life, etc. I feel safer using factory hardware.

There are some things I replace frequently, like Nyloc nuts and lockwashers; but general bolts & nuts get reused forever (unless damaged, of course).

BTW, the consensus among racers seems to be that it's a really bad idea to use lockwashers on flywheel bolts. I don't recall the exact argument offhand, but those guys have spent a lot of time trying to keep flywheels and cranks bolted together under the harshest possible conditions, so I suspect they know what they're talking about. ISTR Kas Kastner mentioned measuring over .600" (yes, over 1/2 inch!) deflection at the rim of the flywheel, so those bolts do lead a really hard life.

Supposedly, that's even why the factory eventually deleted the locktabs; as they are soft enough to eventually pound out and let the bolt loosen, even though it doesn't turn.

Randall: I agree with you but I must add that any fastener that serves a critical function like internal engine and drive train or anything in constant motion and therefore constantly under cycling stresses should not be reused. Reusing these fasteners IMHO is unforgiveable and false economy. As far as Kas and his recommendations, remember that his primary goal was to improve reliability under race conditions. The bolts that are under discussion here are readily available from a number of sources, complete with locking tabs. Just be sure to measure the length. Of course I assume that Rob does not intend to race this car.

 

[glemon]

Thanks to all for keeping the bolt discussion civil, I realize by disagreeing with others thoughts sometimes people can get worked up, just wanted to express a different point of view--not a criticism of other ideas and I hope it wasn't taken that way, we all want to make our cars as good as they can be given our own time and money restraints.

And of course discussing these very issues and letting others express their opinion and the Brit car world sharing useful information is what makes this forum "a good thing" as Martha Stewart would say.

And lastly, back directly on to the original topic--good news on the motor truning issue, an easy fix once identified, on to getting her back on the road, nothing like the trepidtion, and ultimately satisfaction, as you fire up the motor you took apart and rebuilt yourself.

 

[prb51]

Rlandrum,
I'd not use lock washers with the flywheel as I've been told the same by others. Why not shorten them a bit and use locktite, that's what a friend that does race his car recommends in this case.
Pat

 

[TR3driver]

Reusing these fasteners IMHO is unforgiveable and false economy.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, Frank. Even the engine with over 200,000 miles still has most of it's original internal fasteners, and has never suffered a fastener failure. And while I'm not a racer, I do drive hard ... it's seen 6000 rpm on occasion and spent hours in 4500+ territory.

Oh wait, I take that back, I did have a problem once from reusing a locktab. One of the very few times it came home on a flatbed. I don't use locktabs any more; new or otherwise.

 

[rlandrum]

Once again, I may have goofed. I used grade 8 split lock washers to see if the clearance was correct, and it was. So I figured using them would mean that wouldn't have to 1.) buy new bolts, 2.) grind down existing bolts, or 3.) wait for locking tabs from moss (which might not provide enough clearance, actually).

I know that the "correct" thing to do is to use new ARP bolts, correctly (custom) sized, with Moss locking tabs and loctite. Is it therefore safe to assume that I have done the complete opposite of the correct thing by reusing my existing bolts with lock washers?

Basically what I'm asking is if my choice to use lock washers is ever likely to actually effect me. I really don't want to have to remove the clutch again.

 

[PeterK]

Think of it this way: It is easier to r&r now while the car is not completely together than later after it fails and the car is complete. Not saying that it will fail but when done right, the likelyhood of failure is reduced.

 

[TR3driver]

Basically what I'm asking is if my choice to use lock washers is ever likely to actually effect me. I really don't want to have to remove the clutch again.

I feel your pain, but ... if it were my car, I'd change the bolts. Especially since they don't appear to be the right bolts in the first place.

Removing the clutch is trivial compared to what's going to happen if that flywheel comes loose. It might never come loose, but I wouldn't risk it.