TR2/3/3A TR3 Engine Noise

[Deleted member 29929]

Never heard of not using a timing light on any multi-cylinder internal combustion engine, regardless of make.

Often it's good to listen to the voices of experience. Her's a quote from Macy's Garage website - Triumph specialists ...
In days past, when setting the timing of a car was a routine procedure, a strobe light affair called a timing light was normally attached to the number 1 spark plug and the timing was adjusted while the engine was running at idle. On most cars, this procedure produced the desired results because the idle speed was lower than the engine speed where the centrifugal weights would start to advance the timing. The Triumph owner however, will not achieve the desired results when setting the timing with a timing light. The mechanical advance can begin between 450 and 700 RPM. That’s pretty slow for a TR engine to idle, and without knowing exactly where it starts advancing, and by how much, we should probably use some other method to accurately set the initial timing. Fortunately, the engineers at Standard-Triumph specified a method for setting our initial timing with the engine OFF. This is nice in that it can be done in a cool engine compartment, and it keeps fingers and tools away from spinning fan belts and fan blades.

 

[Sarastro]

I remember trying to static-time my TR4A back in the 1960s. It didn't work well, because the point where the points open is difficult to determine precisely. The procedure was to move the adjuster until the points opened, then advance one more notch on the scale, which can also be difficult to determine accurately. At best, it's a crude procedure. Even if you do it perfectly, the plugs don't fire precisely when the points open, in part because of arcing at the points and in part because the voltage across them does not build to the ignition point instantaneously.

All this is pretty academic, anyway, because the differences in today's fuels make it necessary to modify the original timing specs. Instead, it seems necessary to experiment a bit.

I've always used a timing light, and will continue to do so. I'm aware that the advance kicks in pretty early, but that's easy to get around, any number of ways.

 

[karls59tr]

Last summer I had a loud tapping/clacking sound that appeared like it was coming the top end/valve train, it sounded very serious.

But it was just the Woodruff key that mounts the water pump pulley to its shaft being badly worn, allowing the pulley to tap against the housing or pump mounting bolts. I was able to rock the pulley on the shaft with the engine off but didn't notice any movement with the engine running.

Installing new key (found at sears), solved the problem and noise.

Kind of a long shot but worth a look... good luck!!

I had the same thing happen on my TR3.

 

[bobhustead]

As for ignition timing, I have seldom used a strobe. I guess set them to run, then advance to get highest RPM, and retard to drop 100 RPM or so. If that still leaves valve ping on hard acceleration in 4th at 25 mph or so, retard it a bit more. Particularly on older distributors, a perfect 4 degrees btdc will produce highly different advances at 2000 RPM from dist to dist.
As for when the points open on static timing, get the crank where it belongs. Hook a test light to the wire going to the points and to ground. Advance the dist head until the test lite goes on. This is exactly when the points have opened.
The test lite and ping elimination procedures are recommended in the Haynes shop manual.
As for the clinking water pump, some replacement pumps have a 3mm keyway in the shaft, while the pulley slot is 1/8. Make sure they are both 1/8. Rapid wear of the pulley (the softest metal in the system) will result from mismatched parts.

Bob

 

[CJD]

I use a test light on the point lead. It's every bit as precise as a timing light on other engines. When the light comes on, the points are open...light off, they are closed. Many 2 cycle engines are also timed statically, as timing lights have trouble with the fast ignition cycle.

Here's the question...who knows why the TR timing curve kicks in at such low RPM?

 

[Geo Hahn]

Here's the question...who knows why the TR timing curve kicks in at such low RPM?

Possibly because they didn't have to concern themselves with emissions standards?

A timing light is a useful tool for tuning and confirming operation of the advance. Static setting works well enough to get the engine running but I would never rely solely on it when tuning a 50+ year-old engine.

 

[Deleted member 29929]

As for ignition timing, I have seldom used a strobe. I guess set them to run, then advance to get highest RPM, and retard to drop 100 RPM or so. If that still leaves valve ping on hard acceleration in 4th at 25 mph or so, retard it a bit more. Particularly on older distributors, a perfect 4 degrees btdc will produce highly different advances at 2000 RPM from dist to dist.
As for when the points open on static timing, get the crank where it belongs. Hook a test light to the wire going to the points and to ground. Advance the dist head until the test lite goes on. This is exactly when the points have opened.
The test lite and ping elimination procedures are recommended in the Haynes shop manual.
As for the clinking water pump, some replacement pumps have a 3mm keyway in the shaft, while the pulley slot is 1/8. Make sure they are both 1/8. Rapid wear of the pulley (the softest metal in the system) will result from mismatched parts.

Bob

"As for when the points open on static timing, get the crank where it belongs. Hook a test light to the wire going to the points and to ground. Advance the dist head until the test lite goes on. This is exactly when the points have opened"

Yes that's the way I do it. Then the knurled nut two clicks (180 degrees) to get a static 4 degree setting. Beyond that - if you think it's not quite right - loosen the distributer and turn it ever so fractionally, listen to the engine and fine tune by ear.
Here in New Zealand we use 98 octane fuel at the pump.
When I made my first post on this subject I completely overlooked the fact that early posts I was contributing to were already a decade old. Hopefully the questions and issues being asked about way back then were resolved and someone drew attention to the need for static timing ... if only as an initial stage of striving for perfection. My current car is a 1962 Morgan Plus 4 (TR3 engined with Massey Fergusson liners so out to over 2.2 litres). An earlier car of mine was a 1954 TR2.
Brian

 

[DougME]

John, the exhaust leak occurred to me too recently. Seems to line up better with the symptoms. Any ideas on how to confirm? Of course, it's not that hard to replace the manifold gasket......

To check for exhaust leaks I wrangle a rubber hose around the area and listen at the other end. You might need to add a piece of flexible copper tubing to get around some of the (hot) parts.

 

[sp53]

I was told many, many years ago that the little knurled nut on the distributor was used to change timing in European countries because the octane rating changed so much between the countries.

Steve

 

[Geo Hahn]

I was told many, many years ago that the little knurled nut on the distributor was used to change timing in European countries because the octane rating changed so much between the countries.

I've done that myself when the properties of fuel changed on a trip (e.g. entering California or an area with nothing but regular gas). Also useful for retarding the timing before doing a hand crank start on some engines.

 

[Marvin Gruber]

I don’t even own a timing light and I have rebuilt a few TRs,
Marv

 

[sp53]

I would guess the reason for having the timing curve start so low was because the fuel varied so much that you needed the low curve to get moving sometimes.
steve

 

[CJD]

The reason is for hand cranking. If the timing curve was started later, then it would require more static advance for a good idle, and that would cause a kick back when you tried to hand crank.

 

[glemon]

I do have a timing light, but for many years I timed by ear, and I seem to recall reading these or similar instructions, advance to maximum idle speed, back off slightly. Take the car for a test drive after fully warmed up, go up a hill, at lower rpm in 3rd gear, 2-3000 rpm accelerate hard and listen for knock or "pinking" as the British call it. If you hear it back off slightly until it is gone. If you don't here it advance until you do, then back off, slightly until it is gone.

This method will necessitate multiple test drives in your TR, not necessarily a bad thing.