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TR2/3/3A TR3 Engine Noise trouble. New to Triumphs. Granfather's Car. Need Help.
- Thread starter TRWisco
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CJD
Yoda
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It's a weird set up. Tightening the nut doesn't lock the pulley onto the shaft...it just positions the pulley farther down the shaft. When the nut bottoms, it's actually bottoming on the shaft, not the pulley. I think the pulley was likely worn before it was ever put on the pump shaft. Once a little loose, it will continue to work itself larger, regardless of how tight the nut is. In my oppinion this was destined to happen long ago, when the pulley was installed on a loose shaft...
Yep, we pulled the pulley off today and the key notch in the pulley was all messed up. Found out he actually replaced the water pump ten years ago. He had another pulley in his garage that was no good too. So new pump and pulley is in order. Any suggestions for the pump? where to order from? a better model? I'm planning on ordering from Moss, I don't know of any other place.
mrv8q
Luke Skywalker
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MOSS is fine, but you have alternatives. You might check out The Roadster Factory, NFI.
https://www.the-roadster-factory.com/indexmain.php
Geo Hahn
Yoda
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The pumps I recall purchasing came with a gasket & key -- but that is no guarantee what you'll be supplied. A couple of comments:
There used to be a pump that was supplied with a pressed-on pulley, IOW you could not easily remove the pulley. I've had no experience with those, just noting it is something you might see (and not realize that is what you are seeing).
Original pumps had a grease Zerk, most repros just had an undrilled boss in the casting where the Zerk would have been (and bearings that were lubed for 'life').
Some people replace that one bolt (the one you probably had to back out a bit at a time to get the pump off with the pulley on it) with a stud to simplify removal. I don't think I did this but can see some small advantage. Might even be almost required if the pulley is the pressed on version I mentioned.
There are some high-performance pumps that have more vanes &/or curved vanes -- I have an opinion but no experience as to whether or not these are better.
Some reproduction pumps have shallower vanes. These, I believe, are inferior and should be avoided.
The 2 vendors mentioned are about as good as it gets. There is someone on eBay selling rebuilt original pumps but they are pricey.
There used to be a pump that was supplied with a pressed-on pulley, IOW you could not easily remove the pulley. I've had no experience with those, just noting it is something you might see (and not realize that is what you are seeing).
Original pumps had a grease Zerk, most repros just had an undrilled boss in the casting where the Zerk would have been (and bearings that were lubed for 'life').
Some people replace that one bolt (the one you probably had to back out a bit at a time to get the pump off with the pulley on it) with a stud to simplify removal. I don't think I did this but can see some small advantage. Might even be almost required if the pulley is the pressed on version I mentioned.
There are some high-performance pumps that have more vanes &/or curved vanes -- I have an opinion but no experience as to whether or not these are better.
Some reproduction pumps have shallower vanes. These, I believe, are inferior and should be avoided.
The 2 vendors mentioned are about as good as it gets. There is someone on eBay selling rebuilt original pumps but they are pricey.
Okay, mini update time!!! water pump and a new key have been ordered through Moss, however their water pump pulley is out of stock until November. So. I will try ordering one from TRF here soon.
On a side note the new job that I started a month ago decided they don't actually need me so they let me go Thursday afternoon. And by they I mean the spineless owner who fired me over the phone.
But good things happened fast and my old company I used to work for never filled my position so they are willing to hire me back at the same terms as before like it never happened. Start on Monday.
So with that speed bump out of the way... I can focus on ordering that pulley and the baby that comes in 2 months
On a side note the new job that I started a month ago decided they don't actually need me so they let me go Thursday afternoon. And by they I mean the spineless owner who fired me over the phone.
But good things happened fast and my old company I used to work for never filled my position so they are willing to hire me back at the same terms as before like it never happened. Start on Monday.
So with that speed bump out of the way... I can focus on ordering that pulley and the baby that comes in 2 months
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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That joint must be very tight even without the nut, because of the way the pulley sheave (where the belt rides) is cantilevered back over the body of the pump. Evidently at some point in the past, it was put together too loose, with only the nut holding it. Now the pulley has worked around until both the pulley and shaft are badly worn. As noted, you'll need to replace both of them.
If I were your grandfather, I'd want you to call for a flat bed. Even with the belt loose, there is too much chance of the pulley parting ways with the pump and doing even more damage (to the radiator, fan, hood, etc.) I know it's a pain, and probably more money than you want to spend; but a lot cheaper and easier than replacing that radiator !!
In my opinion, you are taking excellent care of the car. These things happen with old cars. The last time it happened to me (just last year in fact), I didn't notice the noise until after the shaft had broken. I was lucky, the pulley got stopped by the housing over my electric fan and didn't do any further damage. But it sure could have, especially if the stock fan was still in there.
PS, guess who put my pulley on without making sure it was tight without the nut :grumpy:
If I were your grandfather, I'd want you to call for a flat bed. Even with the belt loose, there is too much chance of the pulley parting ways with the pump and doing even more damage (to the radiator, fan, hood, etc.) I know it's a pain, and probably more money than you want to spend; but a lot cheaper and easier than replacing that radiator !!
In my opinion, you are taking excellent care of the car. These things happen with old cars. The last time it happened to me (just last year in fact), I didn't notice the noise until after the shaft had broken. I was lucky, the pulley got stopped by the housing over my electric fan and didn't do any further damage. But it sure could have, especially if the stock fan was still in there.
PS, guess who put my pulley on without making sure it was tight without the nut :grumpy:
Yeah we got pretty lucky. The pulley had lasted ten years so something must have just given up. I plan on doing this right with locktight and a new nylon lock nut and a more strurdy washer. The washer that was on there had become convex.
I wasnt worried about the pulley coming off. We actually had to pound the pulley off the shaft. The keyway actually had a notch that went 1/4 way around the inside of the pulley of were it mounts to the shaft. I'll take a picture of it today when I go over there. Its pretty messed up.
Me and my dad just fixed all the hack job wiring in the car under the dash. Everything was having issues and it was just a mess. My grandfather had some jackaloon working on it for him and the guy left wiring just twisted together with no protection. We have no idea how the car never had an electrical fire. Worst part is he had the guy put in a toggle switch for directionals. ... I facepalmed hard on that one.
I wasnt worried about the pulley coming off. We actually had to pound the pulley off the shaft. The keyway actually had a notch that went 1/4 way around the inside of the pulley of were it mounts to the shaft. I'll take a picture of it today when I go over there. Its pretty messed up.
Me and my dad just fixed all the hack job wiring in the car under the dash. Everything was having issues and it was just a mess. My grandfather had some jackaloon working on it for him and the guy left wiring just twisted together with no protection. We have no idea how the car never had an electrical fire. Worst part is he had the guy put in a toggle switch for directionals. ... I facepalmed hard on that one.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
Offline
Same with my current TR3 when I got it. Even had this cute little arrow overlay; must've been some sort of vintage kit to add turn signals to cars that didn't have them.
Might be worth mentioning, since you are new to the wonders; The Lucas fuse ratings given in the manuals are done in a weird system that results in a value about twice that of modern fuses. So where it says "50 amp", use a 25 amp fuse (if you are using Buss fuses or equivalent) and where it says "35 amp", use a 20 amp. Otherwise, the fuses may not blow even if you have a short.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
Offline
Converting to negative ground is easy even without the AAW kit (as long as you don't have any positive ground electronics added). Just switch the connections at the battery, coil and ammeter, then repolarize the generator. There are lots of variations on how to polarize the generator, but one of the easiest is to pull the wire off the 'F' terminal at the control box, and brush it against the "A" or "A1" terminal. You may get some small sparks, nothing to worry about. Then put the wire back on 'F' as you are done.
Oh wow, I would have thought it would be a lot more than that. hmm. I have a wish list on my phone for the car I'll add this to it.
Rummaging around a shed he has I found 2 soft top mechanisms and on windshield with cracked glass. And what looked like some headlight rings. He's had this car since 92 so there's a lot of parts laying around including the parts car with wire wheels. Before the triumph he had an Austin Healey and a Jag E-type convertible.
Rummaging around a shed he has I found 2 soft top mechanisms and on windshield with cracked glass. And what looked like some headlight rings. He's had this car since 92 so there's a lot of parts laying around including the parts car with wire wheels. Before the triumph he had an Austin Healey and a Jag E-type convertible.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
Offline
Yeah, I like that stud too. (Two of them are as original, only one was originally a bolt.) For a long time, original type pumps were not available, and the stud was a necessity to install the aftermarket pump (which had the pulley permanently attached but no bolt in place).
Glad to hear it worked out. These old cars are a whole lot of fun.
Glad to hear it worked out. These old cars are a whole lot of fun.
The one thing I can say that worries me is that there is nothing stopping the pulley from moving on the shaft forwards or backwards. I wish Moss would have done a better job at designing the new pumps they have because I tightend the pulley bolt too hard and it pushed the pulley into the pump and It wouldnt turn so I had to encourage it back off the pump. I'm worried that it will work its way back over time though.
Geo Hahn
Yoda
Offline
Did the pump bind up because the rear edge of the pulley was pressing against the casting? If so, recall my earlier post:
Loosening the pulley to get clearance back there may lead to other problems -- including wallowing & wear on the shaft and pulley. Grinding away the offending metal is the only solution I know. The pulley must be able to be tightened fully home.