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TR2/3/3A TR-3 steering box info ?
- Thread starter alfa33047
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Mine was in bad shape years ago so I sent it on exchage for a re-built. This car still has very hard steering as do all TR3s. If I had to do it over, I would put in one of the rack and pinion kits. My daughter loves to drive this car but the strentgh required to turn the wheel is a negative.
Jerry
TR3A
Jerry
TR3A
rlandrum
Jedi Trainee
Offline
It's not that bad, actually. It comes apart pretty easily. I needed to replace a chewed up bearing in mine.
Sorry, I don't have an official write-up, but... Assuming it's a split column like mine...
* loosen/remove the nut and fitting at the bottom of the steering box.
* remove the control head and stator tube.
* remove both bolts from the union connector in the engine bay and seperate columns by lightly tapping them apart.
* remove steering box from car.
* keep track of the shims that come off the bottom most cover as they're used to set the bearing load/end float (which keeps them in place and running smooth).
* measure and replace the removed shims (they come in .002-.010 sizes).
* reassemble with RTV or Silicon, just like an axle or any other gearbox.
* replace the compression fitting at the bottom with a new one (I think it's called an olive fitting).
* do not refill until stator tube has been replaced.
Sorry, I don't have an official write-up, but... Assuming it's a split column like mine...
* loosen/remove the nut and fitting at the bottom of the steering box.
* remove the control head and stator tube.
* remove both bolts from the union connector in the engine bay and seperate columns by lightly tapping them apart.
* remove steering box from car.
* keep track of the shims that come off the bottom most cover as they're used to set the bearing load/end float (which keeps them in place and running smooth).
* measure and replace the removed shims (they come in .002-.010 sizes).
* reassemble with RTV or Silicon, just like an axle or any other gearbox.
* replace the compression fitting at the bottom with a new one (I think it's called an olive fitting).
* do not refill until stator tube has been replaced.
emmett1010
Jedi Hopeful
Offline
Hello Bill:
My Steering box was a mess(57 TR3 long shaft).
I replaced the bearings and the races, but the worm and peg are worn enough to allow slack in the steering.
I either need to have it rebuilt, or change to rack and pinion.
I'd like to go to the rack and pinion but I don't want to change the appearance of the control head and the banjo steering wheel.
Can this be done?
What do they do with the steering wheel, horn, and turn signals ect.
Who does a good steering box rebuild?
As an aside to Jerry, when I had my 69 B, everytime it got hard to steer, the tires were low on air. EVERYTIME
Emmett
My Steering box was a mess(57 TR3 long shaft).
I replaced the bearings and the races, but the worm and peg are worn enough to allow slack in the steering.
I either need to have it rebuilt, or change to rack and pinion.
I'd like to go to the rack and pinion but I don't want to change the appearance of the control head and the banjo steering wheel.
Can this be done?
What do they do with the steering wheel, horn, and turn signals ect.
Who does a good steering box rebuild?
As an aside to Jerry, when I had my 69 B, everytime it got hard to steer, the tires were low on air. EVERYTIME
Emmett
TR4A_IRS
Jedi Trainee
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emmett1010 said:
There is this kit: Rack and Pinion Kit
It looks like they are out of stock, but looks like a good option.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
Offline
I disagree that they all steer hard ... after I finally rebuilt the box in my 59, it steered just as sweet as any non-power car I've ever driven (and better than some). Did still have a bit of play on-center, but that was because I chose not to replace the worm. New peg, bushing, seal and a couple of shims; whole project cost less than $50 and I felt a fool for not having done it sooner! I could easily park with one hand, and change lanes on the freeway with one finger. And that was with wide, sticky tires.
I've not driven the 57 yet, but it's easy to steer around the garage with just one hand.
I believe careful adjustment is key. The first tip is to get a dial indicator with magnetic base for checking the end play. Add shims as necessary to get some end play, then measure it and remove exactly that many shims to get zero end play. Although the book notes that some pre-load is permissible, it will cause hard steering and so it's better to make it as small as possible. As I recall, you can get within .001" by mixing shims and gaskets. Also be sure the peg cannot interfere with the endplay measurement; either back the peg adjustment off or remove the top plate while doing the end adjustment. The end adjustment has to be done first.
Then to adjust the peg properly, you must have the box disconnected from the steering. You should be able to easily turn the bare shaft with your fingers (but be careful not to let it slam against the end of rotation, as that can damage it). Proper adjustment is when you can just feel the tight spot in the center. Note that position, as you should use that as the center position when reassembling the steering.
A good lubricant also makes a big difference, IMO. I use Valvoline full synthetic gear oil.
Hardest part of rebuilding the box for me was getting the Pitman arm off the rocker shaft. Lacking a proper Pitman arm puller, I tried to make do with my 2-arm gear puller. Had to add supports to keep the arms from slipping off, and then it was adequate, barely. After that, everything else was easy. I used flat washers and threaded rod to pull the bushing and seal; then reversed the process to install the bushing. The seal just taps in. The book says the bushing needs to be reamed, but mine fit perfectly without reaming.
Alignment is also crucial, especially with the split column. I suggest installing all of the fasteners loosely (including the pinch bolts that lock the box to it's bracket and the bolts that hold the bracket to the frame), then first tightening the pinch bolts that hold the columns together. After that, wiggle everything and check for free steering before starting to snug up all the other bolts.
And of course check for binding throughout the remainder of the steering. Herman wrote of finding bent vertical links on his TR250; and the idler arm on my 57 was so stiff that I had to use a hammer to unscrew it.
Don't forget that felt bushing at the top of the steering column either, as it has to take any side force applied to the steering wheel. A healthy dose of powdered MoS2 (aka moly aka molybdenum disulphide) will help it out.
The 59 had the brass/stainless replacements for the silentblocs. I selected those just because I was tired of having to replace silentblocs every few years, but they may also have contributed to the easy steering. I moved them over to the 57 while I had it apart. If you use either these or the (less expensive) Delrin ones, be sure that the idler arm lines up with the steering box. If you just let the idler droop on it's bolts while you tighten them, the hard pivots will bind.
AFAIK, all of the R&P conversions lose the self-canceling function of the turn signals. The most common solution is to convert to a MGA turn signal switch mounted on the dash, which has a pneumatic time delay built into the switch. But others have just foregone the self-canceling feature.
I've not driven the 57 yet, but it's easy to steer around the garage with just one hand.
I believe careful adjustment is key. The first tip is to get a dial indicator with magnetic base for checking the end play. Add shims as necessary to get some end play, then measure it and remove exactly that many shims to get zero end play. Although the book notes that some pre-load is permissible, it will cause hard steering and so it's better to make it as small as possible. As I recall, you can get within .001" by mixing shims and gaskets. Also be sure the peg cannot interfere with the endplay measurement; either back the peg adjustment off or remove the top plate while doing the end adjustment. The end adjustment has to be done first.
Then to adjust the peg properly, you must have the box disconnected from the steering. You should be able to easily turn the bare shaft with your fingers (but be careful not to let it slam against the end of rotation, as that can damage it). Proper adjustment is when you can just feel the tight spot in the center. Note that position, as you should use that as the center position when reassembling the steering.
A good lubricant also makes a big difference, IMO. I use Valvoline full synthetic gear oil.
Hardest part of rebuilding the box for me was getting the Pitman arm off the rocker shaft. Lacking a proper Pitman arm puller, I tried to make do with my 2-arm gear puller. Had to add supports to keep the arms from slipping off, and then it was adequate, barely. After that, everything else was easy. I used flat washers and threaded rod to pull the bushing and seal; then reversed the process to install the bushing. The seal just taps in. The book says the bushing needs to be reamed, but mine fit perfectly without reaming.
Alignment is also crucial, especially with the split column. I suggest installing all of the fasteners loosely (including the pinch bolts that lock the box to it's bracket and the bolts that hold the bracket to the frame), then first tightening the pinch bolts that hold the columns together. After that, wiggle everything and check for free steering before starting to snug up all the other bolts.
And of course check for binding throughout the remainder of the steering. Herman wrote of finding bent vertical links on his TR250; and the idler arm on my 57 was so stiff that I had to use a hammer to unscrew it.
Don't forget that felt bushing at the top of the steering column either, as it has to take any side force applied to the steering wheel. A healthy dose of powdered MoS2 (aka moly aka molybdenum disulphide) will help it out.
The 59 had the brass/stainless replacements for the silentblocs. I selected those just because I was tired of having to replace silentblocs every few years, but they may also have contributed to the easy steering. I moved them over to the 57 while I had it apart. If you use either these or the (less expensive) Delrin ones, be sure that the idler arm lines up with the steering box. If you just let the idler droop on it's bolts while you tighten them, the hard pivots will bind.
AFAIK, all of the R&P conversions lose the self-canceling function of the turn signals. The most common solution is to convert to a MGA turn signal switch mounted on the dash, which has a pneumatic time delay built into the switch. But others have just foregone the self-canceling feature.
newmexTR3
Jedi Trainee
Offline
Here's a great step-by-step picture guide, courtesy of Mark at Macy's Garage. Steering Box rebuild
vivdownunder
Jedi Warrior
Offline
Like Randall, I've kept the original steering box, and being properly adjusted, my wife can drive the 3A whenever she likes. You need good air pressure in the tires as others have mentioned, and it helps to have plenty of tread.
For anyone doing a home rack and pinion conversion, the best rack to use is from a 1988 Ford Escort (if such an animal was ever sold in the States).
Being quite a narrow rack, it leaves the two end tie rods long enough to minimise bump steer.
As you now can't fit a stator tube through the steering center column, the original control head can't be used. However, a German company makes a slip ring adaption that I've not seen, but they claim it allows the control head to be utilized with a R & P conversion.
What I think looks best of the many R & P's I've seen, is using a TR4 upper steering column and switchgear with a TR badged horn button in a woodrim wheel. This set up is functional and blends in well, as it looks pretty much of the era.
Regards,
Viv.
For anyone doing a home rack and pinion conversion, the best rack to use is from a 1988 Ford Escort (if such an animal was ever sold in the States).
Being quite a narrow rack, it leaves the two end tie rods long enough to minimise bump steer.
As you now can't fit a stator tube through the steering center column, the original control head can't be used. However, a German company makes a slip ring adaption that I've not seen, but they claim it allows the control head to be utilized with a R & P conversion.
What I think looks best of the many R & P's I've seen, is using a TR4 upper steering column and switchgear with a TR badged horn button in a woodrim wheel. This set up is functional and blends in well, as it looks pretty much of the era.
Regards,
Viv.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
Offline
According to Wikipedia, "Although the basic silhouette was the same, it was almost completely different from the European version". At any rate, I believe the first generation Escort in the US had a considerably wider track than a TR3, so I would expect the rack to be wider as well, spoiling the angles. Even a TR4 rack doesn't work very well (unless it's cut down), due to the wider track of a TR4 and as I recall my buddy's US Escort was wider than a TR4.DNK said:
His Escort was in an odd state of advanced engine wear : it burned huge amounts of oil around town (less than 100 miles per quart when I borrowed it to run parts for my TR3) but almost nothing on the freeway. Apparently it was mostly sucking oil past the valve guides, and at freeway speeds there was no manifold vacuum to pull the oil down. The cruise control wouldn't hold speed up a hill either, for the same reason.
Thanks everybody for you response. My friend is restoring hid TR-3A and wants to keep the original steering. I build rack and pinion steering conversions for TR-3s for my friends using the Triumph Spitfire rack. I will be glad to share the information but am afraid of being sued if some unfortunate accident happened. It is simple to keep your original control head. When you have a control head that will not return or cancel or center it is a simple fix. You need to find someway to secure that inner tube so that it does not turn when turn your signals on. On a split 2 piece column (which you have to use if you convert to rack and pinion) you drill a hole (1/4inch) in the bottom end of the upper steering shaft of the column. About 1 inch up from the splines of the steering shaft. Be careful not to drill through the inner shaft as it contains your control head wires. Line every thing up to center. Carefully spot weld the inner tube to the steering shaft. You could remove the wires to be safe. The bad part is that you will not be able to remove the inner sleeve that holds your wires unless you drill out the spot weld. I hope that I explained it simply enough so that you can understand. I could supply pictures but have problems moving pictures in my computer. Thank you, Bill C. Mesa, Az.
The stator is 2 pieces. if you take a control head apart and you get down to the stator, you can grab hold of the stalk that goes into the stator tube and turn the head that your plastic part is connected to. That alium. looking tube with a head is 2 pieces. The stator tube (control head) slides into the stator tube (long tube that goes into the steering shaft. I just had 3 of these apart and back together on Monday. Its confussing and I hope that I decribed it correctly. Good Luck, Bill C. Mesa, Az.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
Offline
I understand about the short tube on the back of the control head, that slides over the long tube that normally goes down to the steering box.
What I don't understand is how you are holding either one of those tubes stationary as the wheel turns. And if they are not held stationary, the control head turns with the steering wheel; and the turn signals do not self-cancel.
What I don't understand is how you are holding either one of those tubes stationary as the wheel turns. And if they are not held stationary, the control head turns with the steering wheel; and the turn signals do not self-cancel.
rlandrum
Jedi Trainee
Offline
Yeah... but the stator tube is connected at the bottom of the steering column with an olive fitting and compression nut. Together, these hold the stator tube in place, which in turn stops the control head from turning. Attaching the control head or stator tube to any part that turns means that the control head turns.
If I understand your description correctly, you describe drilling through the end of the upper steering shaft about 1 inch up from the splines and spot welding the steering shaft to the stator tube. When the steering shaft turns, the stator tube turns, and the control head turns, exactly the opposite of the desired effect.
There's only two places the stator tube can be attached. Either from inside the car where the driver sits (which is silly), or at the opposite end, where it protrudes from steering shaft completely and can be secured to the chassis in some way.
I believe our question was whether or not there was a hole through the pinion of sufficient diameter to accept a stator tube so that it may be affixed in place, allowing for the correct orientation and operation of the control head.
If I understand your description correctly, you describe drilling through the end of the upper steering shaft about 1 inch up from the splines and spot welding the steering shaft to the stator tube. When the steering shaft turns, the stator tube turns, and the control head turns, exactly the opposite of the desired effect.
There's only two places the stator tube can be attached. Either from inside the car where the driver sits (which is silly), or at the opposite end, where it protrudes from steering shaft completely and can be secured to the chassis in some way.
I believe our question was whether or not there was a hole through the pinion of sufficient diameter to accept a stator tube so that it may be affixed in place, allowing for the correct orientation and operation of the control head.
emmett1010
Jedi Hopeful
Offline
I seems the only way to retain the control head, and the banjo wheel is to affix the control head to the steering wheel/shaft, rendering non canceling turn signals, chase around the wheel controls while turning, wires that come out the shaft at God knows where.
The bearing races that are machined on the ends of the screw on my steering box are badly corroded. So I need a screw $$$!
Does anyone offer rebuilt steering boxes, or do they all need to rebuild yours?
Thanks, Emmmett
The bearing races that are machined on the ends of the screw on my steering box are badly corroded. So I need a screw $$$!
Does anyone offer rebuilt steering boxes, or do they all need to rebuild yours?
Thanks, Emmmett