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TR 3/4 Front Hub Install - question

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Willie_P

Willie_P

Jedi Hopeful
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three questions;

1) by my tear-down notes, the felt grease seal (which has a steel "cup" integrated to the felt surface; the steel portion should be in contact with the bearing retainer? correct? (conversely, the felt portion should be in contact with the vertical link stub axle protrusion)

2) the Moss Motors provided felt grease seal appears to be pretty thick (I also assume the old seal has compressed a bit over time). I do know there are a lot of posts on here regarding grease seal thickness and cutting them down with razor blades. However, since I was posting (re: #1 above),I figured I ask again.

3) other than amount of grease (debated topic) to insert into the hub body, any "tricks" or anything special to note when installing newly restored hubs for the first time?

thanks, wes
 
Hate it when you don't get an answer....so here goes.

Install the hub without the grease seal.

Tighten the hub to set the bearings then back off the nut at least one flat and enough so that you can install the cotter pin.

Remove the nut counting the turns.

Remove the hub.

Install the seal and lightly oil the felt.

Reinstall the hub with the same number of turns on the nut. Install the cotter pin.

Hub should now rotate and there should be no play in the bearings.

I'm not a fan of trimming the felt. The oil should allow it turn and compress without the need of trimming. I recently installed the Moss seals on my 4 as described above and all seems to work as intended.

Others may have different ideas and/or methods for dealing with these seals and I'm sure they chime in with their advice.
 
bgbassplyr said:
then back off the nut at least one flat
Click to expand...
I agree with Jim on every point except this one. Practical Hints 6th ed (for late TR3A/3B) says 1/2 flat.

And the felts I got from TRF were thin enough to install the usual way with no problem.
 
I'll accept 1/2 flat Randall, but, ISTR, mine took a full flat to line up the cotter pin hole.
 
bgbassplyr said:
I'll accept 1/2 flat Randall, but, ISTR, mine took a full flat to line up the cotter pin hole.
Click to expand...
The spindle is cross-drilled (at least all of mine are), so one set of holes lines up every 1/2 flat.
 
Here's the results of the one hub I went ahead and installed tonight, let me know your thoughts.

1. packed bearings with grease as well as hub cups (inner/outer) that hold each bearing
2. set the bearings as above (with no felt) and removed hub
3. installed felt (oiled them) and tightened hub to factory spec 50 lbs
3a. metal backing on the felt is facing the hub body/felt portion facing the vertical link face
4. backed off 1/2 flat and lined up cotter pin (did not install pin yet).

here's my findings at this point and where I need some confidence.

1. on removal of the hub with "set bearings" - my outer "A" bearing fell out (ie it was not an interference fit per the Roger Williams resto manual).
1a. I am not sure this is a problem - can you guys shed light on this?
2. once i tightened down to factory spec - the whole assembly was so tight I could not budge the hub (ie - rotate it. I am reasonably strong).
3. once I backed off 1/2 - 3/4 flat, I was able to rotate the hub, however it did not spin "freely" - it took some effort, but also was not "notchy". It still did not spin freely however.
4. as stated in an earlier post, I used the Moss supplied felts and did not cut/trim them.

Can anyone critique my work or ask some questions? I just want to be sure that.

a) the hub is not too tight? how can I tell if it's too tight? should I back off another 1/2 flat?
b) I DO NOT have an interference fit on the outer/A bearing. Should I be worried about this or is Roger Williams overly cautious in his restoration manual.

thanks to all.
 
Did the roller bearing fall out, or the race? It's pretty easy for the outer bearing to fall out, its not interference, and only really held in there if the grease seal is stuck to the hub. If the race fell out, well thats another issue and it should definitely be an interference fit.

I don't have the manual handy but 50 lbs sounds too much for the hub - more like 10 ft lbs I think?
 
50 ftlb is definitely too much. Even at 10 ftlb, I think you'd have to back off more than 1/2 flat. The instructions that give 1/2 flat also say to only tighten "until resistance is felt to hub rotation". Another manual says "sufficiently to remove slackness". When properly set (without the felt or brakes), there should be absolutely no resistance to rotation.

As Randy says, the outer cone (piece with the rollers) is loose in the hub. It should be a fairly snug fit on the spindle, but has to come off of the spindle to remove the hub (so not too tight). I don't have the Roger Williams book, but I assume there is some sort of misunderstanding. Practically every RWD car made in the last 100 years works the same way.
 
okay, okay - thanks for the quick replies.

looks like i "just" overtightened it. Not sure how I ended up at 50 lbs.

As far as the outer bearing falling out; the part the fell out was the roller bearings and the conical retainer with the inner sleeve that each roller is housed within. I think I was mistakenly referring to that (in my mind as the "race" after reading the Roger Wms book).

when in reality (after reading both of your replies), that the race is the machined metal surface that is surely part of the hub body. At least from what I can tell since it's shiny, machined and stuck in the hub pretty darn tight. So much so, that I did not realize it was actually removable from the hub body until reading your posts above.

thanks. I'm out to the garage now at 11pm EST to rectify so I can get a good nights sleep.

wes
 
UPDATE: Installed both sides. Used way less torque as recommended. Backed off half flat.

However, I basically tightened the hub to where I could not feel any later play (ie you can hear the bearings clicking when you push/pull the hub body side to side with a tight grip) and then just backed off a bit of the castle nut at that point.

the hubs spin much more freely, but certainly don't "spin" like a bicycle wheel or anything.

my assumption is that with the added weight and radial mass of a wheel/tire combo the hub will "spin" somewhat the way a bicycle wheel does (a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea).

thanks again for helping me through mini-crisis, #111.052

wes
 
Actually with the felt grease seal there is quite a bit of friction there, at least when you first put it together. So it won't spin quite like a bike wheel.
 
Sounds too loose to me if you can in your words "(ie you can hear the bearings clicking when you push/pull the hub body side to side with a tight grip)".

You should not hear bearings clicking or feel any movement by hand when you've decided that the nut is correct. If you do then the nut is not tight enough in my opinion.
 
TR4nut said:
Actually with the felt grease seal there is quite a bit of friction there, at least when you first put it together. So it won't spin quite like a bike wheel.
Click to expand...
:iagree:
I was talking about the process where you set the bearing clearance first, before installing the felt. Even then, it definitely takes more of a push to get it turning (than a bike wheel) because of the increased inertia. But it should continue spinning, a properly adjusted bearing does not present any drag.

The reason for setting clearance before installing the felt is because the felt interferes with the measurement. If you've already got the felt in place, it might be wise to tap it back out.
 
[/quote]
But it should continue spinning, a properly adjusted bearing does not present any drag. [/quote]

As I have it adjusted presently, you can turn the hub by hand with reasonable ease, but the hub certainly does NOT "spin-on freely" - essentially if you want the hub to make a full 360 degree rotation, you need to guide it through the revolution by hand the entire way. however, this does not take a lot of "muscle" to do. just guide it with your finger tip in one of the lug holes.

in your quoted post (above) are you suggesting it would spin freely through a 360 degree rotation without the aid of your hand? My fear is that if I loosen the castle nut that far, there will be excessive lateral play in the bearings. At least that's what I was getting last night when I loosened the nut so that the hub could spin as I am thinking you may be suggesting.

Also, my initial procedure was to "seat" the bearings by fulling installing hub and both bearings WITHOUT the felt seal, I tightened to about 40 lbs and then removed everything. I will clarify that when I did this "seating" process the hub and bearings were fully greased.

wp
 
WOW...gotta love this internet thing.

now that I re-read your post Randall and that little guy holding the sign..

you are ACTUALLY saying, the hub WOULD spin freely without the felt, but once the felt is in, it will spin more akin to my description above (ie - you need to apply some gentle assistance via your hand to rotate the hub a full 360 revolution).

YEAH?
 
Willie_P said:
you are ACTUALLY saying, the hub WOULD spin freely without the felt, but once the felt is in, it will spin more akin to my description above (ie - you need to apply some gentle assistance via your hand to rotate the hub a full 360 revolution).

YEAH?
Click to expand...

Yeah, pretty much. A new felt can rub pretty hard, depending on how thick it is. Once it wears in, though, it should turn freely.
 
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