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to swap or not to swap...

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Ivan_Ingram

Ivan_Ingram

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So here's what ive been trying to decide for the last few weeks. Last summer I got a 1963 spitfire for a very reasonable price. It didn't run, but it was essentially complete, and I wanted it.

As ive been taking it apart, the overall condition of the car is becoming more apparent. Nothing I didn't anticipate mind you and considering what I payed it was hard to argue but anyway...

I'm going to be having to do a complete restoration, but I am now starting to think I'd like to do an engine swap as well.

The original engine block is rusted and has some serious compression problems which im looking into atm. But essentially it will require a complete acid clean and rebuild. Furthermore most of the mechanical components of the car (brakes, electric, etc...) need to be replaced.

With the amount of work required, adding a engine swap to the mix is not that much extra work.

I will be working with my grandfather on this restoration, so I can "borrow" some of his expertise on the matter. He has done a few v8 swaps into alpines, and is also a very good metal worker. Basically engineering this sort of project is no problem.

Reasons for a swap:
-surrounded by highways, so comfortable highway cruising is important
-parts availability makes things simple, I can just pop over to Canadian tire and grab whatever I need.
-fast? if im going to go through the trouble, I'm going to make this thing quick.

The only reason I would want to keep it stock would be because its such an early spit, which at least around these parts are fairly rare. And that it might decrease whatever resale value this has, but I don't plan on selling it unless Ive no other choice and I would never get my moneys worth either so I don't really count this.

I dont want to put a big heavy V8 though, im thinking more along the lines of a ford I4 tuned to ~200-250 hp. (im aware of the modifications required to accommodate this power, no worries there ;)) id likely like to stick to ford options since I thats what my grandfather knows and has many surplus parts for.

I do know I'm likely to get a biased response on this forum, but I figured its worth asking.
 
Hey - it is your car so do what will make you happy. What donor are you thinking?

Even 120+ HP will seem like a lot, 200-250 is a LOT of power in a Spit.
 
Here's the BritishV8.org website you might look to for inspiration, if you need any, but it's your car, so do as you like. There are some purists here, but also a lot of people who just like cars and tinkering so you'll get good support whichever way you choose. Just include lots of pictures as you go along and we'll all be happy!
 
I wonder if you do realize what it takes to accommodate that much hp. When you are done, you'll have nothing but the sheet metal from the original car, if that much. It certainly can be done, but doing it right is going to be a lot more work than just finding a Spit engine to drop in.
 
Yeah, BritishV8 was my next stop. I just wanted to gather some opinions about the whole thing.

Yes, it is my car, but Id hate to irreversibly ruin what (at least in mid-west canada) is a relatively rare care. Honestly mk1 spits seems impossible to find.

At the same time, the type of work required means that even on a normal resto, it would never really be original as there is some substantial metal work involved.

Regarding what it takes to accommodate that much hp, I would have to reinforce the frame quite a bit, completely rebuild the rear suspension, replace the diff and all those little bits.

Im thinking of a turbo'd four banger so the torque would not be nearly as high as the hp numbers. Unlike a V8 which would require a complete new frame otherwise the torque would tear the frame in half.
 
And you won't be just rebuilding the rear suspension, but redesigning it. Etc, etc.
 
This is why I opened this discussion :smile:

Im still tossing ideas around and seeing whats works and what doesnt.

250hp is probably wishful thinking on my part, but I figure aim for the stars...hit the moon, or something to that effect.

I was looking at this swap in particular https://www.britishv8.org/Triumph/MaxBrewster.htm

He seems to be running a reinforced stock frame with redone suspension.

I could, in theory, build a new frame. but thats getting to a point where I may as just build a lotus 7 clone from the ground up (im pretty good with fiberglass so thats not a stretch either :p)
 
Just a thought...

If you're shooting for 250hp in a 1700lbs Spitfire, you'd be getting the same power to weight ratio as a Chevrolet Corvette Z06. :devilgrin:
 
Ivan_Ingram said:
Im thinking of a turbo'd four banger so the torque would not be nearly as high as the hp numbers. Unlike a V8 which would require a complete new frame otherwise the torque would tear the frame in half.
Click to expand...

Have you looked at torque numbers for turbocharged four cylinders? They develop the torque at higher rpm compared to a V8 but still produce large lbs ft numbers.

Otherwise, look into back issues of Grassroots Motorsports, and on their website, for their "Ro-Spit" articles, a Rotoray powered Spitfire. They were getting 200+, maybe even into the 250hp range with a turbocharged 13B. They used the rear end out of a Mazda RX7 and stiffened the chassis with a mild cage (the car was built as a purpose built autocrosser but was also street legal). The articles on the car cover the whole process of the build.

Of course if the whole idea of destroying an early Spitfire does get to you, you could always look into a TR7 or TR8. Perfectly capable of highway speeds and more with a much larger comfort level.
 
This is on our local Craigslist. Probably not too practical since you are way up north where Santa lives, but just thought I'd throw this in. NFI

PRI Spitfire Engine
 
NikolausConrad said:
...you'd be getting the same power to weight ratio as a Chevrolet Corvette Z06. :devilgrin:
Click to expand...

The thought of which makes me giggle like a school girl.

That rotary spit from Grassroots Motorsports seems right in line with what I was thinking, minus the rotary engine.

Its not so much the action of destroying an early spit that bothers me, its more the fact that I really have no way to gauge how (if at all) collectible it is and what it is worth (not in money so much mind you) in stock form. This is largely because cars round these parts seem to disintegrate after about 15 years.

This has made finding even this one quite a feat, I had been checking about every conceivable local classifieds, clubs, etc... for the last years or two prior in search of a small British roadster.

On the local British car club's classified, most of the ads are for cars that are at least one province away, or for stuff that has already been sold. (theres a GT6 locally though, but the guy tried to do a engine swap and cut a big ugly hole in the hood and he's seriously overcharging for the whole thing, $4k for a modified frame, body, and not much else)

Essentially, I would never try this with a gt6, or a tr250, tr2,3,4,5 since there are just not enough left for me to feel right about it.

If this was a mk3 spit id have much less reservations about it.

That tuned spit motor seems interesting, if only it weren't so far away :frown:
 
I found a 63 Mini Traveller a few years back in decent enough shape that I drove it all that summer and the next. It needs some engine work and I've thought about changing out the original 850 for something bigger. But the decision I came to was that the car survived this long pretty much unaltered so it deserves to remain that way. I DID come across a website where someone added a supercharger to their 850 Mini wagon, which made it "compatible" with modern traffic. That idea works for me! If it were my 63 Spit, I'd take the same approach - if it's rusty but otherwise unmolested, it deserves to stay unmolested and brought back to shape. My 2 cents.... :smile:
 
The car remains unaltered mostly since its been sitting in a shed for nearly 30 years!, and spent the last 2 under a tarp outside, which I assume is when most of the rust happened.

An interesting thing I found last week or so as I was starting to strip the engine block after failed attempts to get the compression up, was that the first and original owner had stuffed a rag in one of the frost plugs. I suspect that something went dramatically wrong with the engine, limped it home, only to let it sit.

I'm still investigating whats what with the original, but I dont have high hopes. And since im working on a rather tight (student) budget, the cost of having the block professionally cleaned, examined and repaired is likely to exceed the cost of getting my hands on a suitable swap from a junkyard.

swift6 said:
... you could always look into a TR7 or TR8. Perfectly capable of highway speeds and more with a much larger comfort level.
Click to expand...

I dont think I could live with either of those wedges because theres only place for one wedge in my heart (and hopefully garage), the lancia stratos.
 
Ivan - I'd take a cold hard look a the cost of finding a used but healthy Spit motor vs the cost of overhauling everything required to put a modern engine in. Just look a the FI system you'll need on a modern boosted engine - it is going to run you a couple hundred dollars easily which would make a big dent in a Spit engine.

BTW - we need pictures of the car!
 
some pictures of it when I first got it can be scene over in this thread

As University wraps up for the season, ill have more opportunity to really evaluate the cost and effort of everything.

I'll see about taking some pictures of it currently.
 
booley said:
how about a spit-6? anything you did with gt6 running gear would be reversible
Click to expand...

I have considered that, but acquiring parts locally for me is the major hurdle. Its not impossible, just a lot more work then sourcing some parts from the junkyard.

Of course ive given myself yet another idea...
Ivan_Ingram said:
...I may as just build a lotus 7 clone from the ground up
Click to expand...

I could restore my spit to stock, AND build a 7 clone :shocked:
Id just need to get seriously good at welding and im all set!

I should probably just stop thinking for a while before I give myself any other dangerous ideas.
 
I like where you're going with this!
 
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