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Thermostat
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RomanH
Jedi Knight
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Never run a water-cooled engine without a thermostat if it was designed to use one. The purpose of the thermostat is to control the operating temperature of the engine. It allows the engine to warm up faster and to maintain that temp increasing drivability and economy. A properly functioning and installed thermostat will not cause an engine to over heat but the lack of one may cause the engine to never warm up leading to poor drivability.
I have been running without one fro about 6 or 7 months and my temp usually after driving for about 20 to 30 min is about 185 or a little above. I really never drive it more than 30 min but I would like to. I also noticed that it takes a long time for it to cool off and when I take the oil cap off right after driving there is smoke or steam that comes out
RomanH
Jedi Knight
Offline
The smoke is burned oil fumes which collect in the crank case, thats normal. The upper coolant temp is fine. The thermostat does not affect that, it helps get the engine up to operating temperature faster than without it and also maintain it going down the road. When running for an extended period of time at highway speeds without thermostat you will notice at times that the temperature is bellow normal. The thermostat equalizes things so that the temperature remains fairly constant.
As for the engine taking a long time to cool down, this is normal too. The TR3 engine is made mostly of cast iron which retains heat very well.
After all of that, I would say that all is normal with your engine and who ever told you not to use a thermostat was trying to scare you for no reason.
As for the engine taking a long time to cool down, this is normal too. The TR3 engine is made mostly of cast iron which retains heat very well.
After all of that, I would say that all is normal with your engine and who ever told you not to use a thermostat was trying to scare you for no reason.
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
Hi,
Absolutely not! Just the opposite.
Removing thermostats is a common trick with racers, but all TR racers will tell you not to do that with your car. In fact, anyone who has been wrenching around Triumph TRactor 4-cyl. motor for any length of time would tell you to always use a thermostat in it, never run the car without one!
Without a thermostat, if you run your car a little longer, or out on the freeway at higher rpms, or under a modest load such as climbing a long hill, or even just in a somewhat "spirited" manner, it will very likely overheat.
I've heard several explanations of this, but IMO the most plausible one was that the thermostat provides some restriction to slow coolant as it moves through the radiator. If the thermostat is removed entirely, coolant moves too quickly through the radiator and never gets much chance to cool down, and it's returned to the engine too hot. This provides less heat exchange and temps will eventually build to a point where there will be hot spots inside the engine, the coolant turns to steam and the engine overheats.
I have seen a restrictor sleeve used in MGBs, too, in place of a thermostat, for similar reasons. But not in TRs. Instead, in racing TRs it was pretty common practice to plop the thermostat in a pot of water on a stove and heat it up until it opens fully, then break it to jam it wide open. However, this isn't recommended for street engines. As already mentioned, you do need the engine to come up to it's correct operating temp relatively quickly, and it would sometimes be slow to do so if the thermostat were disabled.
Ideally, use a "sleeved" thermostat, as was original to your car. These are a lot harder to find and much more expensive than the common type of thermostats you'll see in all auto parts stores. The sleeved thermostat has a sleeve built into it - as the name implies - that moves to block the bypass as the thermostat opens, as the engine warms up. The sleeve serves to redirect the coolant into the radiator and prevent most of it from going into the bypass. With the more common, non-sleeved type, the coolant continues to go through the bypass and a lot of still-hot coolant will go back into the engine, never having gone through the radiator to be cooled. Again, this can ultimately cause overheating.
An alternative is to use the more common type of non-sleeved thermostat in combination with something to partially/permanently block the bypass hose. I think it was someone here who said they used a cap normally used for 1/2" copper plumbing pipe, shoved it into the bypass how and drilled a 1/8" or 3/16" hole in it to allow a little coolant to get by.
You can get sleeved thermostats from Moss Motors and The Roadster Factory, last time I looked. Hang onto your hat, though. They are pricey! Someone told me that some not-so-old Land Rovers also use sleeved thermostats, which happen to be a lot cheaper, and I thought might see if one of those would fit, next time I need to replace the one in my TR4.
You've been lucky so far, and I think the relatively short drives have saved your engine. I'd get a proper thermostat installed before taking any longer juants, though!
You can confirm this info, if you'd like, by searching the archives here on BCF or just about any Triumph discussion group. Googling around the Internet will probably get the same info, or drop by www.kaskastner.com and ask the guy who raced Triumphs for 10 years and was the factory Competition Manager in the U.S. for another 8 years.
Hey, I'd be careful about taking any more mechanical advice from the person who told you to take the thermostat out of your car! They obviously don't know very much about TRs!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
Absolutely not! Just the opposite.
Removing thermostats is a common trick with racers, but all TR racers will tell you not to do that with your car. In fact, anyone who has been wrenching around Triumph TRactor 4-cyl. motor for any length of time would tell you to always use a thermostat in it, never run the car without one!
Without a thermostat, if you run your car a little longer, or out on the freeway at higher rpms, or under a modest load such as climbing a long hill, or even just in a somewhat "spirited" manner, it will very likely overheat.
I've heard several explanations of this, but IMO the most plausible one was that the thermostat provides some restriction to slow coolant as it moves through the radiator. If the thermostat is removed entirely, coolant moves too quickly through the radiator and never gets much chance to cool down, and it's returned to the engine too hot. This provides less heat exchange and temps will eventually build to a point where there will be hot spots inside the engine, the coolant turns to steam and the engine overheats.
I have seen a restrictor sleeve used in MGBs, too, in place of a thermostat, for similar reasons. But not in TRs. Instead, in racing TRs it was pretty common practice to plop the thermostat in a pot of water on a stove and heat it up until it opens fully, then break it to jam it wide open. However, this isn't recommended for street engines. As already mentioned, you do need the engine to come up to it's correct operating temp relatively quickly, and it would sometimes be slow to do so if the thermostat were disabled.
Ideally, use a "sleeved" thermostat, as was original to your car. These are a lot harder to find and much more expensive than the common type of thermostats you'll see in all auto parts stores. The sleeved thermostat has a sleeve built into it - as the name implies - that moves to block the bypass as the thermostat opens, as the engine warms up. The sleeve serves to redirect the coolant into the radiator and prevent most of it from going into the bypass. With the more common, non-sleeved type, the coolant continues to go through the bypass and a lot of still-hot coolant will go back into the engine, never having gone through the radiator to be cooled. Again, this can ultimately cause overheating.
An alternative is to use the more common type of non-sleeved thermostat in combination with something to partially/permanently block the bypass hose. I think it was someone here who said they used a cap normally used for 1/2" copper plumbing pipe, shoved it into the bypass how and drilled a 1/8" or 3/16" hole in it to allow a little coolant to get by.
You can get sleeved thermostats from Moss Motors and The Roadster Factory, last time I looked. Hang onto your hat, though. They are pricey! Someone told me that some not-so-old Land Rovers also use sleeved thermostats, which happen to be a lot cheaper, and I thought might see if one of those would fit, next time I need to replace the one in my TR4.
You've been lucky so far, and I think the relatively short drives have saved your engine. I'd get a proper thermostat installed before taking any longer juants, though!
You can confirm this info, if you'd like, by searching the archives here on BCF or just about any Triumph discussion group. Googling around the Internet will probably get the same info, or drop by www.kaskastner.com and ask the guy who raced Triumphs for 10 years and was the factory Competition Manager in the U.S. for another 8 years.
Hey, I'd be careful about taking any more mechanical advice from the person who told you to take the thermostat out of your car! They obviously don't know very much about TRs!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
I know Alan is knowledgable and is bang on the money most of the time. However I have a different experience to convey on the matter.
I have been driving my TR3 since 1985. Having been a very young back then and not having the advantage of things like the internet or anyone to ask about such things, I took the thermostate out of the car back then. I have been driving it ever since that way and had no problems (other then it takes a long time to warm up). I drive it for long highway trips lots of the time and in the city for long drives. I don't often take it out for less then an hour at a time.
I will be the first to admit that one case does not valid data make, so use my experience with great caution. My intention is to put a sleeved thermostate in there when I get around to it.
I have been driving my TR3 since 1985. Having been a very young back then and not having the advantage of things like the internet or anyone to ask about such things, I took the thermostate out of the car back then. I have been driving it ever since that way and had no problems (other then it takes a long time to warm up). I drive it for long highway trips lots of the time and in the city for long drives. I don't often take it out for less then an hour at a time.
I will be the first to admit that one case does not valid data make, so use my experience with great caution. My intention is to put a sleeved thermostate in there when I get around to it.
D
Deleted member 3577
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Guest
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Does anyone know what the sleeved thermostats are.....165, 180....195?
I just checked Moss......$40
Not bad if it helps on a hot day.
I just checked Moss......$40
Not bad if it helps on a hot day.
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know what the sleeved thermostats are.....165, 180....195?
I just checked Moss......$40
[/ QUOTE ]
Most I've seen lately are 160F.
Back in the old days they were commonly available in 180F and 195F, too.
Might be able to still find 180F if you look hard.
Well, IMHO $40 is ridiculous, but it's better than the $70 some were trying to sell them for a few years ago! (Especially when the local auto parts store has the more common, non-sleeved type for under $5).
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
Does anyone know what the sleeved thermostats are.....165, 180....195?
I just checked Moss......$40
[/ QUOTE ]
Most I've seen lately are 160F.
Back in the old days they were commonly available in 180F and 195F, too.
Might be able to still find 180F if you look hard.
Well, IMHO $40 is ridiculous, but it's better than the $70 some were trying to sell them for a few years ago! (Especially when the local auto parts store has the more common, non-sleeved type for under $5).
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
jsneddon
Jedi Knight
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
Well, IMHO $40 is ridiculous, but it's better than the $70 some were trying to sell them for a few years ago! (Especially when the local auto parts store has the more common, non-sleeved type for under $5).
[/ QUOTE ]
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif
but I've got some serious Scots blood coursing through my veins. I've done the cheap thermo with a 1/8 hole drilled in it to allow for burping and I have the bypass blocked with a small hole for minimal flow.
The biggest improvement I made with cooling was really flushing out the block. When I took off the block draincock I had zero water coming out of the hole. About 15 minutes of chipping with baling wire (and some very gentle hand drilling with a drill bit) finally freed up all the crap that had accumulated in the back end of the block. I flushed it twice after that with the prestone goop and took it for about a 30 minute easy drive with just water and baking soda. One more water flush to clear and I've been running at 185 ever since.
Oh... I don't remember if someone mentioned this yet or not but open the radiator cap when cool and stick a meat thermometer in there and let the car run up to operating temp. Then you'll know exactly what your temp guage is telling you. They are not the most accurate things in the world after all these years. Mine (a late 60's Stewart Warner replacement /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif ) reads about 10 degrees higher than reality.
Well, IMHO $40 is ridiculous, but it's better than the $70 some were trying to sell them for a few years ago! (Especially when the local auto parts store has the more common, non-sleeved type for under $5).
[/ QUOTE ]
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif
but I've got some serious Scots blood coursing through my veins. I've done the cheap thermo with a 1/8 hole drilled in it to allow for burping and I have the bypass blocked with a small hole for minimal flow.
The biggest improvement I made with cooling was really flushing out the block. When I took off the block draincock I had zero water coming out of the hole. About 15 minutes of chipping with baling wire (and some very gentle hand drilling with a drill bit) finally freed up all the crap that had accumulated in the back end of the block. I flushed it twice after that with the prestone goop and took it for about a 30 minute easy drive with just water and baking soda. One more water flush to clear and I've been running at 185 ever since.
Oh... I don't remember if someone mentioned this yet or not but open the radiator cap when cool and stick a meat thermometer in there and let the car run up to operating temp. Then you'll know exactly what your temp guage is telling you. They are not the most accurate things in the world after all these years. Mine (a late 60's Stewart Warner replacement /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif ) reads about 10 degrees higher than reality.