TR2/3/3A The value of TR3's?

[luke44]

I am watching an auction on ebay right now for a TR3B, which looks like it is going to go over $7000.00 for a car that is complete, but needs a total restoration.

Now, knowing that all the <span style="font-style: italic">parts alone </span>for a restoration will come in somewhere around $20-25k, if not more, I wonder about the economics of such a buy. If you add the cost of outsourced specialist work - be it the local machine shop, paint/body work, or whatever (unless you can do <span style="font-style: italic">everything</span>), and then add in the tear down and rebuild labor involved and aggravation, I just don't get it how these cars get bid up to these levels. To me they barely make sense if they are free.

Especially when I often see completed cars struggle to get $20-25k. And this isn't the first one like this I've seen. Did all the interested bidders go and see the car, or do people just spend this kind of dough based on a few pictures?

I wonder if maybe there are a lot of people that have a lot of enthusiasm and $7k to spend on a project, but not $27k on a finished car. But, in the end which is the better buy? Am I missing something here? Don't get me wrong - I happen to think good clean 3's <span style="font-style: italic"> should </span> bring Healey 3000 money, but for whatever reason, they just don't.

Please enlighten me. :confuse:

 

[TR3driver]

Well, I see several reasons. Main one is that some people enjoy doing restorations. This is a hobby, not an investment.

Another is that it is very difficult to look at an assembled car, and know how well it was actually restored. I have seen literally show-winning cars that blew huge clouds of blue smoke and could barely pull themselves back onto the trailer!

Along the same lines, for someone who is only planning to sell the car, the parts alone can be had much cheaper than $20K. I've not added up my receipts, but I would be very surprised if I've got even half that much in TS13471L, and it looks pretty good if I do say so myself.

And while I have no intentions of ever selling it, I chose to do a car myself rather than buying someone elses finished car for the above reasons.

Plus of course I had a definite idea of what I wanted; and the odds of finding another car that met my desires were miniscule. Just didn't seem to be any sense in buying a 'restored' car when the first thing I was going to do was repaint it, and start modifying it.

I guess some of us just pick one toy and stick with it

 

[mrv8q]

Luke, I follow most of the TR3s on eBay, for my own knowledge. It seems to me there are mostly 2 kinds of eBay TR3s: "Restored" 3s for 20K+, or rusty, swiss cheese cars for 2K+. Mine is squarely in the middle.

I was lucky when my '59 found me, that it was a not-abused California car w/ no rust, stored away for 20+ years. Since then, I've done the mechanicals myself, and only done restorative work on the interior: leather cappings, instrument panel repaint, etc.

To me, other than buffing the paint, a full-blown restoration is a losing proposition. Once a nice paint job is procured, the chrome will look shabby, and will have to be done. Then the interior won't match the car, and will have to be tended do; the dominoes will continue to fall...

At our club car meets, there are member w/ beautiful concours-quality cars. One of the guys spent 13K on a pristine black paint job on his '3; he says I must enjoy my car more, since I'm not freaked/paranoid about damage to the immaculate paint. Although I would love to own his '3, (or any of his cars), I wonder if I don't enjoy mine more as just a capable driver, which will one day in the distant future, be passed off to someone as a well-maintained car, destined for greater restoration.

For me, in the long run, it was critical to find the "Goldilocks" car: Not too rusty, not too expensive, but just right. I was just lucky it was my first LBC.

Still, I follow your car w/ much interest. Good luck on bringing it back!

 

[martx-5]

Well, I see several reasons. Main one is that some people enjoy doing restorations. This is a hobby, not an investment...

This is exactly why I did all of the work on my TR3. It cost me about $16-$17k in parts, but I could have come in much cheaper if I didn't put in so many modifications. $1600 for Toyota trans, $1100 for rack & pinion, $1000 in HP increase over stock engine rebuild, figure another $1000 for wider wire wheels rather then re-doing the originals, nice wooden steering wheel...just about $5k less then if I had kept everything stock.

The trick is to do all of the work yourself, or most of it anyway. I did all of the body work and paint, along with the mechanicals. The only outside work I paid for was the machine work on the engine.

It took me four years, but for me, it was the journey more then the final destination. If I had more space, I would be looking for another project.

The end result.

 

[GBRandy]

I was watching the same auction. It is crazy. You can buy that black car out of Miami for an asking price of $23,900. It needs some attention....but not more than perhaps $2k - $3k.

To pay $7000 for a car and pump in $20,000 in parts and another $20,000 in labor is insane.

However, if you can not afford the $23000 now and can afford a payment stream and know how to do the work yourself then perhaps this does make some sense.....but just not to me.

 

[luke44]

So....it finished off at $7650.00. I agree you buy a project for a) knowing what you have, and b) the satisfaction of the build, but, imo, it still has to more or less make sense.

I hope a TR3 at some auction some time sets a new sales record for the marque. If a Healy 3000 brings $50 $75 or 100k, or more, there is absolutely no reason why a real nice 3 <span style="font-style: italic">shouldn't </span> bring $50k... or more. If you talk to the high end resto shops who specialize in these cars, you will soon discover there are guys spending that kind of dough on ground ups on them. We sell these cars short...the real real nice cars rarely come up.

TS60980L is also a project car on ebay right now, but because it is in pieces it will not likely bring anywhere near what TCF1239 just brought - it'll probably struggle to make $2500.00 . Yet, 60980L actually runs, and you are going to spend the same $$ to bring back either car. Just seems the "complete" car draws the bigger dollar. There is also a car in upstate NY that still hasn't met reserve at $1500 - that one is nothing more than a parts car.
Randy - did you ever look at that TR2 up your way? It seemed to me like a nice piece.

 

[rlwhitetr3b]

Does anyone have the id number for this auction? I would like to compare it to my B.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Try this link (as a completed auction, you'll need to sign in).

 

[luke44]

....., the parts alone can be had much cheaper than $20K. I've not added up my receipts, but ....

Hi Randall....Take look at this link and see how easy it is to spend $30k......oh....and then compare a few of the prices in the article to todays numbers..

https://www.timyoho.com/TriumphPage/Triumph%20Page.htm

 

[TR3driver]

Well, first of all, the parts listed on that page only come to less than $16K ($15,697.84 including the labor to rebuild the side curtains), and include suspicious things like two different water pumps. I only checked a few prices, but I can easily beat every one I checked today, in some cases by a factor of 2 or more!

For example, it lists $1300 for side curtain rebuilds; but TRF will do a pair of them for $619 parts and labor (in Robbins top material, which is reasonably close to the original material). And likely the charge would be even less than that for a "Customer Investment Program" member. (Which anyone contemplating a restoration should join.)

Ed's entire point on that page is that he got ripped off, multiple times!

(Not sure if Ed is on BCF or not, but I know he's on another Triumph list that I frequent.)

BTW, I just picked up my TR3A radiator today, with the fill neck replaced to take a standard cap; and the extension tank reinforced to hopefully prevent any further cracks ... total bill including cleaning and testing was $77.

 

[Mkutz]

I've heard that something like 80% of project cars fail to be completed be the acquiring owner -- I blame this on underestimation of time it really takes and rosy economics about the costs involved. Usually people's estimates involve paint, engine rebuild costs and a new set of seat covers from Moss. However, this is probably only 35 to 40% of the total costs, at least in my case it was. No one seems to include wheel bearings, badges, new electrical looms, seat springs, lift the dot pegs, fuel tanks, brake springs, tire tubes, carburetor needles etc., etc., etc., These nickel and dime costs quickly push the total costs through the roof.

If you ask me, and if the economics of the situation are of a concern to you, then buy the already fully restored care for mid to high 20's. At least then you are buying in at established market prices and could probably get your money back (or most of it at least) and can start driving your car from day one. Most of the "project cars" out there are major rust buckets (my case)which will require extraordinary skill and/or money to repair. You could easily spend $30k or more on those cars and become well inverted on the market value to cost of the car. If restoring a car is a business decesion, then don't do it on a TR3, as you're not likely to make much money, if any at all.

 

[MDCanaday]

I did not see this car on ebay,but I would interject that for 7500+ it should have been rust free and not dented up too much.It is the badly rusted ones that really eat up the restoration funds. Also since the B is so rare it will bring a premium when its done(if sold).
A good solid body tub with no collision damage should be worth 3 to 4k all by its self,compared to the floor-less hulks with rotted sills and aprons that are all too common these days. The best advise you can get on a project car is to BUY THE BEST EXAMPLE YOU CAN AFFORD.Not the aforementioned hulk......
MD(mad dog)

 

[rlwhitetr3b]

Thanks Andy!

I think mine is in about the same shape. Different things wrong, but about the same. I did not know someone would pay that much for it.

Randall express my thoughts...
I know it would be cheaper to sell it and buy a restored one, but it would not be something I did. With my luck I'd by something for $22K and find that it was just a car shaped object and still have to spend $16K to fix it.

 

[luke44]

… I've heard that something like 80% of project cars fail to be completed be the acquiring owner -- I blame this on underestimation of time it really takes and rosy economics about the costs involved…

Mkutz – I think you hit it right on the head! Underestimating the real cost kills a lot of projects. This was absolutely my point about the 3B that sold on ebay. The same costs will go into that car to do a full resto as a lesser priced car – basically a lot of parts have to be thrown away anyway – so the “complete” car doesn’t justify its extra cost imo. So what if it has seats and carpets? Your gonna replace ‘em anyway.

… If restoring a car is a business decision, then don't do it on a TR3, as you're not likely to make much money, if any at all. …

Please don’t misunderstand my motives. It is absolutely a labor of love and I really don't care where the final numbers finish up at. I owned a TR3 as a teenager and have never lost my passion for another one. This car is a keeper for me. My RSA is a lot rarer piece and can be my speculation car (not that I would sell it either) if investing in cars was the plan. Having said that, I wouldn't buy any car, even a 3 if I had to spend $10k on it and it was worth say $3k the next day – it has to make <span style="font-style: italic">some</span> sense is all I ‘m saying….I was just very fortunate to fall into a situation that was a financial/economic bargain - albeit at some other guys expense (see Mkutz’s point #1 above)

.... the parts listed on that page only come to less than $16K ($15,697.84 including the labor to rebuild the side curtains), and include suspicious things .......I only checked a few prices..., but I can easily beat every one...For example, it lists $1300... BTW, I just picked up my TR3A radiator today,..$77.

Hi Randall - not to beat the point to death but I <span style="font-style: italic"> guarantee</span> you a ground up resto can eat $30k in parts. A rad for example can run from $77.00 as you point out, right up to $500 for a new one, so I am not sure the rad is a good example. Look at the front badge - $103.00 - I think they are closer to $149-179 today.
For anyone wanting to get a good sense of a full ground up it, based on real and current numbers, and breaking into big chunks it goes something like this:
Chassis Strip & Powdercoat, Wheels/tires - $2300
Front Suspension - $900
Steering rebuild - $950
Rear Suspension - $700
Brakes - $850
Wiper Motor Generator Starter SS exhaust - $900
Carbs Fuel Pump - $350
Clutch & components - #50
Trans - $630
Odrive Rebuild parts - $530
Engine Rebuild parts - $1900
Machine Shop - $1400
Body Tub sandblast sheet metal parts - $1150
Cloth Wiring – incl all sub ass’ys - $530
Windshield / Water temp gauge - $400
Misc small parts - $4300
Fit Panels Prep & Paint - $6000
Leather int, Wool carpet, Mohair top stick cover tonneau - $2800

I can detail any of the big chunks if anyone wants specifics.

Cheers,

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

re-chroming can also be a big chunk of change as well if you go that way....

Cheers,
M. Pied Lourd

 

[TR3driver]

Stainless steel exhaust, powder coated chassis, mohair top ... making a silk purse from a sow's ear does cost more! Here's what TS13571L looked like, a bit over a year ago (and after I'd already replaced the instrument panel and steering wheel).

 

[luke44]

Stainless steel exhaust, powder coated chassis, mohair top ... making a silk purse from a sow's ear does cost more! ....

Hi Randall -I understand where you are coming from. But, I inherited a great many of the parts including the s/s exhaust and powder coasted chassis. Not sure I would have necessarily gone that route either depending on the starting point (I originally started out looking for a clean driver to putter with), but the chassis and drive train upgrades were already done, and in essence a throw in. When I saw where this project had gotten to, and negotiated the price, that is when I decided to shift gears to make the car a full on concurs project.

I happen to believe TS31577LO is far from a sows ear - a 2 owner rust free AZ/CA car that came from the factory with overdrive, leather, & wires - as a true survivor, it almost <span style="font-style: italic">deserves </span>a little extra care during its second build. And, remember, it's my keeper, so a few more $$ for things like an upgraded top aren't gonna break the project (and I can put the top up a lot easier in cold weather!). As for the other upgrades, I am just trying to be faithful to how the car was optioned when it came out of the factory - all according to the BHM certificate.

And don't worry about it being a trailer queen when it's done. It <span style="font-style: italic">will </span>get driven!!

 

[TR3driver]

Sorry, didn't mean to be criticizing your car! Besides, it's your car so it should definitely please you.

My point is just that some people call it "restoration" when in fact they are creating something that never existed before. These were cheap sports cars, the materials, fit and finish were simply not that good when they were new. A $10,000 paint job is NOT "as it left the factory".

 

[luke44]

Hi Randall - no big deal - no offense taken.

I guess the more I think about it, the more I still believe the TR3 is an under-appreciated classic when compared with the numbers the Healy 3000's bring. The 3's lines are every bit as nice imo, and the performance wasn't that far apart. Having said that, I don't know what the Healy 3000 production numbers were.

If the 3's value was more in line with even more mediocre 3000's, the $7650 for a complete 3B project car on eBay makes perfect sense. Like one shop said that I visited - the cost of the restoration isn't all that different between the 2 cars. But, I guess I should be careful what I wish for - at least now the is the TR3 is still affordable.

As for the paint, yes I agree the original paint was never a $10000 job, which I am assuming you mean the standard show car basecoat coat followed by numerous clearcoat layers to achieve a 2 foot deep polished finish, but a lot of the cost of a paint job today is also in straightening and prep of 50 years of wear and tear which wasn't required on a new car.

 

[jdubois]

I don't know what the Healy 3000 production numbers were.

I believe there were about twice as many TR2/3/A/B's made than Healey 3000 MkI & II's.