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The fun just won't stop [engine rebuild questions]

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Darrell_Walker said:
But to have such a bad seal on the head that coolant make it way over, I would think you would have major leaks from the combustion chambers, too.
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Depends on why it was leaking. Remember, the combustion chambers are surrounded by the wet liners, which are potentially higher (or lower) than the rest of the cylinder block.
 
The machine shop I use in Orangevale pressure tested the last TR3 I owned. I can give you his number if you can't find the fittings. I think we determined that the head had small erosion spots that were causing a leak around the head gasket. But the result was water into the cylinders and white exhaust that was very easy to see. Water into the oil must be a small leak.

Jerry
 
Pat, I am watching your progress closely. I can't imagine what has gone wrong, the advise from the experts has been great! I am just finishing putting together my TR3 engine and wondering, and hoping I don not, if I will have a similar problem??? I did replace the engine plugs, my machine shop did that for me, I am using the rear seal kit from TRF I used a an aviation grade gasket seal from Napa Auto Parts called Form-a-Gasket sealant on the figure 8s and held in the sleeves with washers so they didn’t move when I was installing the rings and pistons. I am just getting ready to complete the job but I am gonna wait and see what happens with your testing. Good luck!
 
Hi Guys - a small update.
Engine is on the stand, and I closed off the two water fittings on the water pump yesterday. Filled engine with water. And used the heater control valve as an access to pressurize the water system. I put 7 psi on it and it has held since yesterday around 4 pm with nary a water drop from the cylinder sleeves. I'll check it again tonight, but it doesn't seem like this is the source of the leak (leak around figure 8 gaskets). If I can't find a leak by this method, then I'll next remove accessories and the head and see what the head gasket looks like (engine only ran for maybe 45 minutes total run time). Then, cart off the head and the block to the machine shop for evaluation by the experts. Thanks for the encouragement - hope I'll have this resolved in the next two weeks.

pat
 
Just a thought, Pat, you might want to try higher than 7 psi. The dynamic pressure inside the cylinder block can go quite a bit higher than the pressure cap, as the water pump forces water through the restriction of the water passages. Some of the racers have reported measuring over 35 psi at the back of the block.
 
DornTRoriginal said:
Pat, I am watching your progress closely. I can't imagine what has gone wrong, the advise from the experts has been great! I am just finishing putting together my TR3 engine and wondering, and hoping I don not, if I will have a similar problem??? I did replace the engine plugs, my machine shop did that for me, I am using the rear seal kit from TRF I used a an aviation grade gasket seal from Napa Auto Parts called Form-a-Gasket sealant on the figure 8s and held in the sleeves with washers so they didn’t move when I was installing the rings and pistons. I am just getting ready to complete the job but I am gonna wait and see what happens with your testing. Good luck!
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My guess is that you'll be just fine. Double-check the liner protrusion and put it together. I've changed liners several times (on several different TR engines) and never had any problem with the Fig 8 gaskets leaking. And that "Aviation Form-A-Gasket" is exactly what I use on Fig 8 gaskets and the felt at the rear seal. I don't like it in other places, because it sets up so hard over a long time (in spite of the "non-hardening" label), but it does seal well.
 
Quick update. Blocked water pump intake and discharge, put air line on the heater valve fitting at head, and applied 8-10 PSI since Sunday. No water leakage. Cranked it up to around 16 PSI today, to see if that makes a difference. I don't feel comfortable pushing it to 30 PSI. If the figure 8's were the problem, I'd at least have a little drip emanating from the bottom end. Floor is dry of water.
If this pressure check doesn't indicate a culprit, I'll remove the top end this weekend and take it to the machine shop. Let them "read" the head gasket.
Pat
 
Nice setup there Pat - I certainly don't see how the Figure 8's can be the culprit at this point, which is good. It might be worth popping the valve cover and see if you notice any slight air leak on that top aluminum plug - a little bubbling should be easy to spot.
 
TR4nut said:
Nice setup there Pat - I certainly don't see how the Figure 8's can be the culprit at this point, which is good. It might be worth popping the valve cover and see if you notice any slight air leak on that top aluminum plug - a little bubbling should be easy to spot.
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Randy, excellent advice. All my testing was with cover on. Here is a pic of my severely corroded aluminum plug (which I did not know existed when I had head rebuilt) and just for fun, a picture of the bubble when I sprayed a little water on this location. I had some condensation in my valve cover that I noticed during my one hour of engine run time - Given my figure 8's dont' appear to leak, I'm thinking that this plug is the culprit for my water in oil woes. I will say that I didn't really see much coolant around the rockers but certainly had water emulsion in the pan. Thanks Randy.
Pat



 
Pulled the head, this is what I found

Hi Guys

So, I pulled the head on my waterlogged engine. I'm going to have a machine shop replace the aluminum plug. I wanted to share what I found and ask for your thoughts.

1) It looks to me like the head gasket sealed well. The marks on the gasket don't show any leakage, in my opinion. Curious if anyone sees anything else. You can see copper gasket spray on deck and top of sleeves. As info, the sleeves stand about 0.003 proud of the block deck on the tappet side of the cylinder and about 0.001 proud of the block deck on the intake/exhaust side of the engine. Either top of deck isn't flat, or base of block where sleeves mount isn't flat.
2) I can't understand why I have this weird black oily mist in cylinders 1 and 4. Because it's on the cylinder wall, I'm thinking maybe it occurred somehow after engine was shut off? Very strange. Combustion chamber is also black in those two cylinders. When I started and ran engine, it seemed to run well and rev fine - no white or black smoke was noticed.
3) I can't understand why three of my head studs are rusted and rest look like new? Curiously, the corroded studs are on the outside corners, farthest from the tappets. Why would that occur and should I care? These studs were all cleaned and in great shape when I installed them, 18 months ago.
4) Seem to have lots of corrosion in the water galleries. And quite a bit of crud. The block was tanked at the shop, so I figured it would be pretty clean and clear of debris. There was even scale on the new cylinder sleeves (see photo).

If anyone has any thoughts on what might be gleaned from these photos and observations, let me know. Hope to have this back together next weekend, if machine shop isn't too busy.

Pat











 
DNK said:
Pat- Do Cyl. 1 & 4 share the same carb?
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Nope. One and two share a carb. and three and four share a carb. It's oily residue. Not fuel. Car's been sitting for about 18 months.
 
Wow, I thought we had already beat that plug to death recently. Good catch, Randy! And congrats on finding the problem, Pat.
 
Rather than trying to put back the aluminum plug, it's probably better to tap the hole and use a steel pipe plug. Doesn't look as neat, but will be hidden by the rocker cover.

My take on the corroded studs is that the head gasket did leak a tiny amount on that side, at least for awhile. Ordinary antifreeze contains a mild stop-leak so that may have stopped the weeping, but the corrosion says to me that coolant got at least into the stud hole. Also, it appears that somehow you didn't keep the coolant up to date (meaning the anti-corrosion additives wore out or weren't there to begin with). Distilled water is surprisingly corrosive to freshly cleaned iron and steel.

While it's apart, double-check the valve stem clearance on the intake valves for #1 and #4. I think that black stuff might be partially burned oil.
 
Thanks Randall. I just picked up a black iron plug from Home Depot and shop will install that. The aluminum plugs that I got from Jerry have a much smaller diameter than the plug in my head so I can't use it anyway.

Corroded studs are puzzling. Not sure how I'll prevent that in the future (other than buy premium anticorrosives for my coolant). I will install a new Payen gasket when I reassemble.

Valve stem clearance? You mean clearance between stem and guide? Hoping that is fine, as I have new valves and new guides and new hard exhaust seats. Machine shop will check that for me.
 
PatGalvin said:
Valve stem clearance? You mean clearance between stem and guide? Hoping that is fine, as I have new valves and new guides and new hard exhaust seats. Machine shop will check that for me.
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That's what I mean. Maybe it is fine, but mistakes happen. A simple check is to remove the spring then hold the valve slightly open with your fingers and try to shake it side to side. You shouldn't be able to feel any movement.
 
Pat, I have a valve spring compressor if you need it. I was wondering if the oil seal was put on the valve in those two outer cylinders?

Jerry
 
Looks like the plug is porous, needs replacing. Has had some electrolysis eating at plug. Would use steel in it's place with good sealer.
 
Jerry said:
Pat, I have a valve spring compressor if you need it. I was wondering if the oil seal was put on the valve in those two outer cylinders?

Jerry
Click to expand...
OK, is someone playing with me here? What oil seal? There are oil seals on the valves? I don't see those in Moss' cylinder head exploded view. I had the head professionally machined and they did everything short of port-n-polish. I'm pretty certain they didn't install any oil seals. AARRGGHH.
 
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