• Hi Guest!
    You can help ensure that British Car Forum (BCF) continues to provide a great place to engage in the British car hobby! If you find BCF a beneficial community, please consider supporting our efforts with a subscription.
    There are some perks with a member upgrade!
    **Upgrade Now**
    (PS: Subscribers don't see this gawd-aweful banner
Tips
Tips

SVRA-changes

Share this page

aeronca65t

aeronca65t

Great Pumpkin
Offline
This is just an FYI:

I'm sure that Michael O. and some of the rest of you may already know this (because you're on the same VRG e-mail chain as me).

<span style="text-decoration: underline">SVRA is under new ownership</span>: Peter McLaughlin is now sole owner of SVRA.

Peter is an active vintage racer from Hanover, NH, and owner of a computer software company (Chicago Soft). Peter bought SVRA once before, back in the mid-1990's and was sole owner for a few years. At the time, SVRA and HSR were two completely separate entities, and were competing fiercely for race dates, entrants, etc. Shortly after buying SVRA back then, Peter starting negotiations with HSR to attempt to improve relations, which culminated in the semi-merger of SVRA and HSR.

As far as I can tell, HSR has been having trouble. I know the new Rahal Vintage group ( www.hmpseries.com ) has taken another date away from HSR, the December Sebring event.
Also, for what it's worth, I'm not an SVRA racer......I'm a bit more "working class" than most of those guys. :jester:

Anyway, here's the official announcement:
________________________________________________

SVRA/HSR ANNOUNCE RESTRUCTURING
February 15, 2010: SVRA and HSR today announced a restructuring in which ownership and management of SVRA and HSR have been revised so that each of these sanctioning bodies will be managed independently to better build on their separate formats and unique histories.
Both organizations began operation in the late 1970’s and evolved developing uniquely different focuses in the vintage/historic racing arena. SVRA, with Carl Jensen as Director of Competition, will concentrate on its long standing focus on the Classic eras including the 1950’s -1970’s and special features with a very strong emphasis on period correctness, while HSR along with Ken Fengler as Vice President of Race Operations, will continue to include a broader spectrum, with sports cars from the 1950’s and thereafter, but with heavier emphasis on the later eras of the 1980’s–early 2000’s, including Historic Stock Cars, GTP/WSC and the early Daytona Prototypes. Over the many years of evolution, the two organizations have always been different and being combined was clouding their unique identities.
With this restructuring, cross ownership between the two organizations will remain and the litigation between one of the existing principals and a former principal has been settled. Going forward, the management of both HSR and SVRA will continue to support each other in the coming years to minimize the recent fragmentation of vintage organizations and events, which in the long term, only escalates costs and eventually increases track rental and ultimately entry fees of vintage racers. Our goal, as it has been for over 30 years, is to support vintage and historic racers with a predictable, high quality racing experience and we look forward to your support of both SVRA and HSR.
“We are very pleased that this restructuring has now been effected and believe it will benefit all HSR and SVRA members” said Steve Simpson of HSR. “And we look forward to continuing cooperation with SVRA in all we do, including at our upcoming joint event at Road America in May”
“SVRA is a great organization and I am pleased to resume my former position at its helm,” added Peter McLaughlin. “SVRA will be moving dramatically forward with its 2010 schedule and beyond and I believe both SVRA and HSR will be much stronger as a result of this move.”
 
Yes, Nial I read the same release as you along with Mark's announcement. Being simply a consumer in Vintage racing and not being on the Board of Directors of any of the various vintage groups I naively assume that all is well in Mudville and am always amazed at the intermachinations that seem to go on behind the scenes--you'll remember all the scrambling for dates and partnerships that took place last year at NJMP.

At the end of the day it appears to me that the non-commercial clubs such as VRG, VDCA and VSCCA seem to come out cleaner and less involved in or effected by events such as this. I always have a good time at SVRA events and think they do a generally good job, but they must have some agenda in mind that goes further than simpy pleasing me. I do think they are top-heavy with staff and have you ever noticed that after the first tech day all the inspectors are generally sitting around the shack picking their noses--clearly this costs money. Plus they transport these people from event to event on, I must guess, the corporate tit.

In any case I hope that more good Vintage racing will be the byproduct of this corporate reorganization.
 
Yeah, I often wondered why vintage groups don't get a knowledgable racers to do tech, for free entry or a barder deal like that, after all tech guys are checking safety items, so it would impartial and done by people really in the know.
 
While I'm not a SVRA fanboi, they do have a some good attributes and it isn't a secret that they are "for profit".

The one thing that is nice about SVRA, is that there are no overzealous, powertrip volunteers who don't know diddly squat like you find in some other clubs <cough>SCCA<cough> . There is one tech guy, he sees all the cars that run with SVRA, and if you have a question, you can call him up and get a "yes, you're allowed to do that" or a "no, that's outside of what we're trying to do".

However the downside of having no checks and balances is this...

"They let some cars/people get away with much more than others.

I've seen tube frame, dry sump, aluminum calipers, etc go un-"noticed". And I've seen people busted for having the wrong headlight cover."

The other organizations, just don't have the competition that SVRA has at the big events. The car I crew on, runs at the front of 50 car fields at the big events. Until guys like Skirmants, McKenzie, Cone, Tillinger, etc start regularly running with the other organizations, we'll run SVRA.
 
Of course the best thing about SVRA's tech system is that you can get an annual, something that only VSDA offers to my knowledge. When you go to your first event you simply tell the techie that you want an annual, and he stamps your book accordingly and that is that--for all subsequent events just go to the tech shed with your log book and do your own tech inspection. It is ironic that they have this option which many people do not seem to know about and yet have the most (paid) tech inspectors who, after the first day, don't have much to do but are still on the payroll.

I agree that soemtimes volunteer tech inspectors have some off the wall comments and I usually just nod my head and tell them I will certainly have that taken care of before the next race. They do not make a note of things, probably will not remember what they said should they do your car again in the future and that is the end of the matter.

At one event (track, group and inspector shall go nameless) the inspector told me that my shoulder straps, which attach to the main horizontal bar at the base of my main loop just above the deck, should in fact be attached to a bar below the deck as if the main loop snapped off and took the horizontal bar with it I would not have any anchoring place for my shoulder straps. If that happened I think I might have bigger problems (like no head), but I simply listened and told him that was an interesting observation and I would look into it.
 
It took me two days to get the Huffaker MGB thru tech at the first SVRA race it wnet to, kinda funny the tech guru was judging the car with fine tooth comb, and the car was very easily the nicest prep LCB at the race. He made a comment that he was afraid that the car would get into a magazine photo at a SVRA race and that would be bad, ironicly enough we put Tim Suddard in the car for featured article in CMS that weekend. I have a SCCA tech license, and I always tried to keep my eye on my job, judge the safety issues, and be more personable to folks as they are your customers, many volunteer types don't get this, if itn't fun people won't come.
 
Hap Waldrop said:
He made a comment that he was afraid that the car would get into a magazine photo at a SVRA race and that would be bad,
Click to expand...

What does that mean. :confuse:
 
Tullamore said:
Hap Waldrop said:
He made a comment that he was afraid that the car would get into a magazine photo at a SVRA race and that would be bad,
Click to expand...

What does that mean. :confuse:
Click to expand...

Big flared fenders on the Huffaker car and running with "Group 3" which uses the '67 GCR with no-flares.

We've shown up with a historically significant, pre '67 car with flares. The rule is that if it has flares, it runs Group 8. Not too big of a deal, you're just not going to run up front(unless you're making 300+hp). Put unflared fenders on it, and they'll put you in Group 3 without a problem.

The "photo" comment was used when trying to get different tires for the 15" wheel crowd, as they are at a performance disadvantage to the 14" crowd. Run a faster (and ironically cheaper) radial with a 50 series sidewall, and it's "Group 8 you go".

Hap, not picking on you, and I'm not sticking up for SVRA as we have our reasons to be mad with them, but it sounds like you have maybe confused what they said.
 
Eddie gets to run in group 3, we absolutely refused to alter the car from it former glory to meet the rules of a vintage body that mostly has cars racing in it with no history. I can tell you now, as the Hondas and Toyota get to be more popular and take over the production ranks in the SCCA we need to have a vintage class that accepts the coil over flared SCCA car, I mean lets be honest here, there a preety well known MGA out there running in vintage with his coil over SCCA supsension. This era of production cars is the most technolgy advanced era for thes cars and went faster than any of the factory efforts could ever dream about, so there needs to be a home for them in vintage, for what in my opinion is the very best examples of these car ever built. I thinke we need the current 72 era cars but then a calsl for these cars as well, who cares put them in group 8,and watch them outrun Corvettes and 911s :smile: Sometime people in vintage really don't know the history because vintage is where they started, trust me these cars are history. In most races Eddie's MGB is the most historic car in the race. Vintage racing only makes sense to me, if it expands with time, and not frozen in time. Who every starts accepting these later prod cars into vintage in their own class is going to get a class that will have the fans glues to the fences, these cars are noramlly 10+ seconds a lap faster than their 72 era counterparts, these type of cars does not need to be sitting in barns and garages wasting away, this is history !
 
Hap Waldrop said:
Eddie gets to run in group 3, we absolutely refused to alter the car from it former glory to meet the rules of a vintage body that mostly has cars racing in it with no history. I can tell you now, as the Hondas and Toyota get to be more popular and take over the production ranks in the SCCA we need to have a vintage class that accepts the coil over flared SCCA car, I mean lets be honest here, there a preety well known MGA out there running in vintage with his coil over SCCA supsension. This era of production cars is the most technolgy advanced era for thes cars and went faster than any of the factory efforts could ever dream about, so there needs to be a home for them in vintage, for what in my opinion is the very best examples of these car ever built. I thinke we need the current 72 era cars but then a calsl for these cars as well, who cares put them in group 8,and watch them outrun Corvettes and 911s :smile:
Click to expand...

Hap,

I think a lot of guys know the history because they were there. I disagree with the later prep cars attracting fans. Fast they are, but that's because there is little left of them. Give those 911's and Corvettes cantilever slicks and take out 300lbs and watch what happens :wink: .

Look at the spectator counts at your average spectator-allowed vintage race compared to a SCCA race. There is a reason people, both old and young, go to vintage races. You're not going to get this at a SCCA race https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH5tcdQK6uE and the cars look like cars... not a freaking batmobile. Put Harold's Sprite or Chima's old Elva next to their stock body counterparts. They look nothing a like! Faster doesn't mean more exciting... a car glued to the track on slicks is less fun to watch than a driver sawing at the wheel on old-bias plys.

I do however think the Prod cars of the 70's look the best. Subtle flares, small roll bars, and cool paint jobs. The only old cars that still have that look are the Huffaker and Haynes/Chima Midgets.

Front of the pack vintage at the big events... it's not like the drivers are spending any less money than if they were to campaign a top flight SCCA car. I bet the cost to have Huffaker build you a no-limits vintage car is about the same as a FP car, the money just goes into different places (hint: motor).

Don't get me wrong, I like the SCCA. However I'm more into the SM/FV type racing. If I want to win the Runoffs, it's going to be in a drivers class. That way I know I won, not because I had the car to win. Vintage is fun because it's about the car.

My .02
 
Well put Bob -

I do think our friends across the pond have the best (organized and classed)
vintage racing currently running. The Masters Series https://www.themastersseries.com/race-series.html offers a good blend of the things you just described. If you have seen any of the GT Racer Series on the Discovery Channel you know what I mean. It does take big bucks to play like that, but you can't take it with you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG794xitfPY


Dougie
 
Bob, I think you are watching a different SCCA prod classes than me, having a good car and getting around a track fast is not hand in hand, you have to be able to drive, if you watch the web cast of the prod races this year, and saw HP, FP and EP and thought those were not some the best races ever, then you and I are on different planets. If you think the only reason Harold Flescher can get around Road Altanta in his Midget in 1:38, is because he has good car, we have to disagree, Harold can drive and would dominate vintage if chose to in a vintage car, consider his 1:38 was 21 seconds faster than last weekend Midget polesitter at the VDCA races at Road Atlanta. And for numbers of these cars, you know I'm in the bizz right, there are hundreds of them, heck there more than dozen in my hometown. In 2002 they were over 100 LBC prod cars at the runoffs, and more than 60 in last MO runoffs in 2005, so there are big numbers of these cars. These guys deserve to have a vintage race groups, and SVRA has even discussed it, and don't stick them in there with the 72 era cars, put them in group 8, but they belong, and most of these car pocess way more history than some guys vintage car he built in his garage. Sorry, but I have to strongly agree to disagree. Vintage is changing thats for sure, I watched it go from a parade to very competitve racing, where the front runners often are seasoned SCCA guys. I think 72 era vintage racing needs to stay on the course it's headed, mostly just fun racing, but some of you guys need to bow down and welcome into vintage the most historic era of racing these cars, cause sorry the Sebring MGBs when compared to Huffaker's Midget, or Chima's Elva doesn't do it for me, cause Craig went out on 2002 and beat field of larger more powerful cars and if that ain't history, I kiss your, oh well, you know what I mean :smile:
 
Hap Waldrop said:
Bob, I think you are watching a different SCCA prod classes than me, having a good car and getting around a track fast is not hand in hand, you have to be able to drive, if you watch the web cast of the prod races this year, and saw HP, FP and EP and thought those were not some the best races ever, then you and I are on different planets. If you think the only reason Harold Flescher can get around Road Altanta in his Midget in 1:38, is because he has good car, we have to disagree, Harold can drive and would dominate vintage if chose to in a vintage car, consider his 1:38 was 21 seconds faster than last weekend Midget polesitter at the VDCA races at Road Atlanta.
Click to expand...

The EP and FP races were great. I'm glad the LP formula is working, those cars should have been in Prod twenty years ago. I'm a younger guy, so in SCCA I like to see the more modern cars winning. Limiting the modern cars so a 40+ year old car can keep up is what's hurting SCCA. If NASA stops shooting themselves in the foot, SCCA is going to hurt.

Don't get me wrong, and I don't know Harold so I apologize if he reads this, I'm just using him as an example as it's the same car model. AND he can wheel darn well, He's shown this over and over again, and really should have more National Championships than he does. But, do I think he's that much better than guys like Charlie Guest (who is running vintage now)? Guys like John McCue (also a former SCCA National Champ), Charlie Guest, Harry Gentry are turning 1.45-6's at Road Atlanta. The difference between Harold's 1.36 and their 1.46's is 95+% car.

I agree they should have a place to race. I like RMVR or whatever it's called going to the 1982 rule set. If SVRA gave them a run group with that rule set, then awesome! I do think that's as modern as a LBC should be prepped to though.

Lets just agree to disagree...
 
Bob, I hope you know my personality enough to know, I don't mean anything personal, just having passionate debate. I think the modern version of LBC SCCA car is the most honest expression of the best these cars can be, these guys have computer design suspensions, super light weight chasiss, bodywork, and honest engine, meaning built to the rules and still making more power than most, well not so legal vintage engines, if I had to guess I would probably say less than 50% of vintage guys are right on bore and stroke. I raced with most of the guys you mentioned and they are fast, I've known Charlie for 30 years, and he knows how to mash the pedal, but it fair to say Harold normally beat him in a heads up race, but thats nothing negative to Charlie, heck Harold beats us all :smile: I know Harry as well, he has a nice car with good motors and drives it well, his background was SCCA national showroom stock racing, so he knows what it takes to get to the front.

When I mention including the full prep SCCA cars into some sort of vintage to the vintage crowd, the first reaction is normally fear, and most don't have good things to say about including these guys, I'm sure because they think they will be upstaged by this level of prep, but it's a different game, and they should run with another group. For the last 20 years I seen vintage frozen in stone, and it's model too will die off as we veterans all get older, so vintage as well needs to be thinking about letting some new blood into the game, or it too will die a slow death.

I think vintage racing in the US is going thru the same tranformation it did in the UK, from gentlemanly racing to really competitive racing, guys are spending big bucks on motors and trannys. I think the future of vintage leaves two choices, leave it like it is, kinda run what you brung, with little importance on race wins or championships or get serious, and get a good check and balance system in order to assure everyone is playing the same level field, I don't think most vintage guys want to go thru protest and all that it takes to be a real legitmate race series, so my vote would be for run what you brung, and get a handshake for a win, that leaves more money for good beer and food at the social :smile:
 
Hap Waldrop said:
...........get a handshake for a win, that leaves more money for good beer and food at the social :smile:
Click to expand...


That's what we (mostly) do in VRG. No trophies or points....just bragging rights.

I'm not sure if making it more competitive will help that.

Doesn't matter if you're in the front of the pack or towards the rear. As long as you're having some good "dices" with your buds, that what really matters.
No offfense but it's too late for any of us to become the next Lewis Hamilton. :jester:

Part of the ~VRG~ deal is that if a racer finds he is consistently at the top in finishing (especially if has an obviously "hot" motor, etc), he should voluntarily move up the the next faster class. It's not etched in stone and doesn't always work, but I think the majority of guys "get it".

And if some guy in a check-book race-car blows past my $3500 stock-engined Spridget, it's sort of a "hollow victory" for him.......I could easily do the same thing. If I wanted to.
But then I'd miss dicing with all my "mid-pack buddies", where all the real fun is.

Not for nothing, but the <span style="text-decoration: underline">best</span> race I ever saw was a Showroom Stock SSC race (at Lime Rock). And I've been to a lot of races. A whole flock of teeny tiddlers screeching around turns on skinny tires and soft shocks. Great stuff to watch!
And Spec Miata races are fabulous to watch too.....all done in (relatively) cheap, simple "hairdressers's cars" (I'm talking about the majority of Spec-Miatas......not the podium cars with the $40,000 'stock' engines).

And some of the <span style="font-style: italic">worst</span> races I've ever seen have been in F1 and Can-Am (in the late 60 and early 70s). The machines were cool but the racing was boring.

My point is that fastest cars don't always make the best racing. They might, but it's not a guarantee.

I'm not sure what to do about the full prep SCCA "trick" cars.

A few years ago, our club did an experiment and let about 10 newer "slicks and wings" formula cars run with our regular Club Fords and Vees. The "regulars" weren't too keen on the way things went. It sort of killed the fun for them. They voted not to do it again. You'd probably get the same results if you tried to mix in a small number of full prep Spridgets with cars like mine. If the full prep cars <span style="text-decoration: underline">can sustain their own class</span> (or they don't mind mixing in with faster "big bore" cars), that could probably work out.
Clubs have a balancing act here. Sure they want to attract new drivers, but they also have a large number of hobby-level, amateur racers (like me), who are only out there for fun and do not have the "must win" attitude.

Take a look at ~About the 4 minute point in this video~

It's me and Chris Meyers (online editor of MGVR) having a great time hammering away at each other in our low-bucks Midgets. But we caught up with two much slower cars (a Bugeye and a Spit). Those two guys were having their own level of fun and there's no reason to spoil it. Rather than bust their chops with any <span style="font-style: italic">banzai passes</span>, we just hung out and passed them in the straight.

*That's* what vintage is about to me.......I drive as hard as I can but respect others who have different levels of skill and intensity.

Would the full prep guys bring that same attitude to vintage? I don't know.
 
I agree for the most part Hap, but I'm not sure letting in modern prep cars is the answer. Younger people want to race newer cars, prep has nothing to do with it. Instead of focusing on newer prep cars, they need to start bringing in the cars from the later 70's and 80's.

Nial,

That is still the case for the people up front. The problem is, an ex IMSA / or top flight SCCA racer's 8/10 is going to be someone elses 13/10. Same goes for car prep.. if they have the knowledge, they can't help but use it.
 
I agree with a lot of what Hap says. I don't know all the players he speaks of but do know Harry and when I see his crew tow his Sprite up to the grid or when several other guys of the same caliber appear I figure that lacking mechanical problems or a big crash those spaces at the front are just not available to me, but I can still have fun racing in midpack.

There is no way in the world I am going to be able to keep up with a Spridget pumping out 130 HP with discs, wide tires, etc. etc. that weighs several hundred pounds less than my Courier. Would I like it if there was a separate group (as opposed to class within the group) that I could run in with cars like mine (drum brakes, Dunlop 204's, mildly prepared engine, etc)--YES. But I can have a good time racing with guys who I know from past experience are more or less my equals, etc.

And yes--the guys at the front are good wheel men as well as having hot cars.
 
Great debate.

I'm a young guy too. Why am I racing a MG? I wrestle with that question a lot, but it was always my dream and I really love the marque.

That said, we are all slowly becoming vintage and the definition changes year-to-year. Just consider that the Mazda Miata is more than 20 years old.

I would never want to show up to a vintage race and have to compete in class against a full prep SCCA car. I've taken my vintage car to SCCA races and been schooled by them, so I know from experience ...

However, these full prep cars are real and their history a significant part of U.S. road racing. Why would you not celebrate this? A mindset that says ignore them makes me ask similar questions that I do when I see Amish riding on the side of the road in their carriages. How come it was acceptable to advance to the buggy, but not to the car?

The rules allowed these cars to morph and American ingenuity has been on full display as drivers find a way to continue to dominate in lbcs 40 years later - Sargis was on the pole at this year's runoffs in his Spitfire and Eric Prill had a very impressive podium finish in his Super 7. These guys are using the foundations of the original car, but have pushed the technological boundaries.

These cars are amazing, so why would they not fit within the pantheon of vintage racing. Would Hall's Chaparrals not be welcome? What about a Jaguar GTP car?

Maybe I'm confusing a few things, but at the end of the day, these are real race cars, right? Then, why not include them? Just don't allow IT and old Showroom Stock cars :wink:
 
Back
Top