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suspension Issues.

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Dr_EluSivE

Senior Member
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See if anyone can figure this out. I Installed New Leaf springs on the Back of the midget, My old ones had a few broken leafs. I used ALL new hardware and springs But when i put weight on the vehicle the drivers shackle lays down agaist the spring. I measured and Re-meausred everything and all the lengths see to match my old broken springs. This car has not been wrecked so i dont think the mounting point has moved, I have the axle located on the leaf correctly and the front spring seat isnt adjustable. What is up with this?? My old shakles (and the ones on the Sprite) are virtually straight up and down.

Dr.
spring1.jpg

spring2.jpg


[ 09-11-2003: Message edited by: Dr_EluSivE ]</p>
 
can you post a photo of the other end of the spring where it attaches to the body?

[ 09-11-2003: Message edited by: tony barnhill ]</p>
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by aeronca65t:

Dave...I think he said that the new springs are the same length as the old (right, Dr El?)
<hr></blockquote>

Nial,
I know what he said. The doubt is about how they were measured. If you measure eye to eye on springs that have different free camber they could easily measure the same but be different lengths when loaded.
D
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tony barnhill:
can you post a photo of the other end of the spring where it attaches to the body?

[ 09-11-2003: Message edited by: tony barnhill ]<hr></blockquote>
This is the best Pic i have of the other end. the Car is 150 miles away (im at school) so this is the best i can do for now.
spring3.jpg


As for the measurements, i measured them 2 ways. I measured from eye to eye in a straight line, and i also meausred around the arc of the spring. The both came up almost identical to the old spring. As for adding leafs from the old one.. This new one is riveted together. I am not sure how i could get it apart to add or change a leaf. I think i would end up destroying it trying to get it apart. The pass side spring on the car had 1 broken leaf, the drivers side had 2 so i dont have much good on the old spring to use. The passenger side went on fine, but the drivers side is still not right. I am thinking about modifing my old shackle bracket to mount the spring shackle back ****her. And problems with me doing that?
Also the drivers side does seem to sit slightly lower than the pass, But it has always been that way.

Dr.

EDIT: Why does it Bleep f a r t h e r ?

[ 09-11-2003: Message edited by: Dr_EluSivE ]</p>
 
D.P.

[ 09-11-2003: Message edited by: Dr_EluSivE ]

[ 09-11-2003: Message edited by: Dr_EluSivE ]</p>
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dave Russell:


Nial,
I know what he said. The doubt is about how they were measured. If you measure eye to eye on springs that have different free camber they could easily measure the same but be different lengths when loaded.
D<hr></blockquote>


Got it Dave....I see what you mean.

DrEl: the bleep is created by the fact that the software on this site won't accept "certain" words. You got bleeped due to "f@rt" contained in the larger word. I guess it's one of the consequences of this "genteel" site....I think most of us prefer it to be a "nice" place, but once-in-a-while, you end up with these humourous results. Overall, regarding your car, I'd till try re-arcing at a spring shop rather than moving the suspension points. I doubt it would be that expensive.
 
hi all,
when i replaced the springs in my 79 i had to bolt the fronts up , and then attach the rear shackles. i was stumped for a few minutes when my shackles kinda looked like the Dr_E's. however i used a pry bar to roll the shackle to a more vertical position. and get the shackle mount holes to line up. i kinda got the feeling that at the same time i was tensioning the spring . i also kept everthing sorta loose and tighten everthing up with weight on the car

any of this make sense to anyone? ****her more i did this as an assembled unit. toughest part was getting the the straps to hook up. couple of buddies leaning on the car helped

Mark
 
Years ago I had the same situation on a B I was putting new rear springs in. I can't remember what I had to do to correct it. What Mark posted does seem to ring a bell though. Seems like I had to use a pry bar to correct things, but I just don't remember. What confuses me is you indicated the P/S mounted ok, and that there was no difference in the two springs. That tell me you did something different on the D/S that caused this.
 
Mark & Tom are on the right track. When you put the P/S on first and had no troubles, there was plenty of slack and wobble available to the axles. When hooking up the D/S you were taking up that slack. I did what Tom suggested and used a pry bar to roll the shackle back over-center. Once it passes a certain point in the arc that it travels, it will drop into place. By the way, your D/S Ubolts aren't connected yet are they?
 
I assume from the pics that this is all with the wheels hanging free.

From the first pic, the shackle is WAY over center & there is positive camber in the spring. If it is just locked over center the axle should be completely agaist the bump stop & camber should be close to, zero. Why would it lock anyway unless the shackle bushings are binding. If it is just pried back the other way spring camber should increase several inches which would be obvious. What's to keep it from going back to where it was when the car hits a big bump?

If the shackle position shown is with the spring loaded & the camber is zero or negative, the shackle will actually swing forward on bump which is just fine.

The problem is that we don't know what the loaded spring camber, shackle position, & ride height are. Do We?
D

[ 09-11-2003: Message edited by: Dave Russell ]</p>
 
after assembling the whole setup D/S and P/S i noticed the problem and Loosened everything back up. After that i did the pry bar thing and got the shackle straight. Then i re tightend everything and set the car down. it was fin til i took a ride and then it layed back down again. The UBolts and all other hardware was attached when i pic was taken but the car was up in the air. I belive it was sitting with jackstands under the axles though so i could get a better pic. I think the Re Arching thing sounds like my problem, When sitting the spring is almost straight on the d/s but the pass side has a Bow in it. My dad had a little luck today welding a plate on the bottom of the old shackle mound and putting some slotted holes in it. When slid back about 3/4 of an inch he says it stays up. I would rather find out the real problem though. I will check around and see if i can find someone who can Re arch it. Is there some kind of spec it needs to be arched to?
Here is the only picture i have of the rear after the spring was installed. It sits pretty straight. Dont look at the bumpers, they are crooked,(long story) look at the bottom panel

spring4.jpg

Dr.
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by aeronca65t:

You got bleeped due to "f@rt" contained in the larger word. I guess it's one of the consequences of this "genteel" site....<hr></blockquote>

My goodness... I didn't know fárt was that bad a word. UBB-censors working overtime!
grin.gif
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dr_EluSivE:
it was fine til i took a ride and then it layed back down again. -- I think the Re Arching thing sounds like my problem, When sitting the spring is almost straight on the d/s but the pass side has a Bow in it. I will check around and see if i can find someone who can Re arch it. Is there some kind of spec it needs to be arched to?
Dr.<hr></blockquote>

I would expect it to lay down again. Apparently you need to have the DS match the PS. Did the two springs (before you installed them) have exactly the same camber (arch)? If they did & they don't now, when they are installed, either the spring rates are different on the two springs or one has lost some of its arch. Simply adding more arch to the DS (flatter spring) won't make up for different spring rates. Binding of the shackle pivots can really confuse everything.


A test for spring rate is to lay the spring with eye ends down on a flat surface & apply about 400 pounds weight to the center of the spring. The distance from flat surface to spring center should probably reduce between 1 & 2 inches with the 400 pounds applied. Both springs should be the same. Also the free camber & the free length should be the same. Almost any good spring shop can check this stuff for you. I know that removing the springs again is a real pain, but it may be worthwhile.

If the DS needs more arch or more spring rate, then that side of the car must be sitting lower now. I believe that Nial mentioned a free camber of 5.58" for new springs. The important thing is to have both sides the same.

If the two springs are different in rate or arch I would think that the supplier should replace them.

Hope I'm not adding confusion to this problem.
D

[ 09-11-2003: Message edited by: Dave Russell ]</p>
 
Some day when you have nothing to do switch the springs side to side and see if the P/S does the sag thing. That will determine if it's the spring or the car?? Bob
 
Clearly, something's wrong.
My racing Spridget, which has re-arched springs to lower it, has a more vertical shakle than your's (mine are about 30 degrees from vertical).
I guess it's fair to check the new springs and see if have been made properly; it sounds like they're deffective.
My manual lists the "free camber" of the leaf springs as 5.58 inches.
"Free Camber" (of laminated springs) is defined as the vertical distance between line joining the eye of spring and middle bottom of the spring. This Camber is measure without applying any load on the spring . Please note that the number given is the stock value for a '78 Midget...but at least it's a place to start from. It would also be interesting to see the value for the loaded camber (this would tell if the springs are tempered correctly). I can't find any info here on loaded camber for a Spridget.
G'Luck!
 
I thought that maybe the springs were defective but they are the sam elength as the old ones. I guess they can arched wrong? The problem is i bought them over a year ago and just got around to putting them on. I would imagine i can not exchange them now thati have had them for so long. Any idea on how to fix it? (aside from buying another new spring)

Dr.
 
I think that you left out a vital piece of information. How does the rear ride height compare to a stock car. Or how level does the car sit front to rear. If the springs are the correct length but the rear is sagging the free camber or the spring rate is too low. If the rear is not sagging the springs are too long.
D
 
Hello Dr. E,

Something no body has mentioned (Unless my glasses have failed!), are the springs symetrical with regard to the axle mounting point? I'm not MG wise, but some manufacturers design the spring with the axle mount off centre of the spring.
However if they are symetrical then the set of the spring must be wrong.

Alec
cheers.gif
 
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dave Russell:
If the rear is not sagging the springs are too long.
D<hr></blockquote>


Dave...I think he said that the new springs are the same length as the old (right, Dr El?)

If nothing else, you could always put a few extra springs (from the old spring set), into the new set: but you may have to get creative with the spring clamps (and this assumes that you have have an equal number of old intermediate-length springs that are useable). I have 3 extra leaves in my racer (with home made spring clamps).
Otherwise, see if you could bring those springs to a spring shop and have them re-arced. A lot of truck-repair shops do spring re-arcing.
 
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