Suspected Pertronix failure

[Bob_Spidell]

A few observations:

1) before full-on electronic--e.g. 'coil-on-plug,' ECU-controlled systems--millions of cars came with breakerless-points ignition systems, with traditional distributors and wires (an old Subaru I owned had one; it looked very similar to a Pertronix unit). I never heard, at the time, of an inordinate number of failures of these types of ignitions (the Subaru went for over 170K miles with no ignition issues).

2) solid state electronics usually come in several grades, from ones for 'normal' use to ones that have been specially 'hardened' for use in hot and unfriendly environments (think jet engines, rockets, etc.). Presumably, the Pertronix people use such hardened components (but I don't know that for a fact).

3) it seems to be human nature to blame them; even my extremely experienced mechanic/restorer father wanted to blame a Pertonix for some running issues--stumbling, hard-starting, etc.--in his '55 T-Bird. We eventually found the problem to be an embrittled, leaking fuel flex line at the fuel pump.

4) there seems to be an issue of 'expectations.' When I installed a Pertronix in my BJ8, I only expected the convenience of not having to replace points every year (and risk dropping one of the fiddly bits into a black hole, or not getting the insulators stacked-up correctly, setting the gap, etc. etc.). When I first started the engine after installation, the timing was off but the engine fired up quicker than ever and idled smoothly down to 300RPM (and probably would have gone lower). I knew I was on to something.

5) last I heard, it was getting difficult to get quality points--Advanced Distributor may be the only source now--and, as someone has mentioned there has been a run of bad condensers.

I'm not shilling for Pertronix; I've just found them to be an excellent product and the support people are extremely helpful.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Not to prolong this discussion that I started, but I have encountered another issue while shopping for a spare/replacement Pertronix. A couple of LU-165 units listed on eBay include a fixed list of proper fitments, none Healeys, and a pull down that lets you identify other cars, in my case a '60 BN7 with negative ground. The answer comes back, and this in red letters, warning that this unit is not correct for the Healey I identified. But the Pertronix business site, upon being given the dizzy in my car, DM6A 40581A, says the LU-165 is the proper unit. The unit now in my car, installed by the restorer likely eight to 10 years ago, bears this on the white label: "Pertronix Carb E.O. D56 2." I haven't remove it yet and am seeking advice on whether the coil could be shorted, endangering a replacement unit. I get a good spark between the coil and the wire to the dizzy but didn't get anything at a plug wire, as described earlier. Checking that again today with a plug grounded. Hope we are all learning something from this exchange. Frankly, I've never owned a car that has had so many things go wrong with it despite the fact that it is just a wonderful car to drive. Blessed that it chose its first failure on the road less than a mile from home and near a friend with a tow vehicle.

Coils should have a nominal resistance--Pertronix has a spec, but I don't know it offhand--which is easy to check. Remove the coil, noting the wiring arrangement, and check the resistance across the two primary terminals and compare it to the Pertronix spec (IIRC, it's a minimum of 1.5ohms or so, but don't quote me). If you don't have a DVM ('digital volt meter'), get one. It's one of the most useful tools around, and they're not expensive any more (Harbor Freight has them for less than $10, but get a good one). Coils are another component that people like to blame, probably because they're easy to change out. I know, coils do fail occasionally, but they have no moving parts and unless the insulating oil leaks out they should last a good long time. My BJ8 still has its original coil, going on 200K miles (with a sizable dent on it to boot), and modern 'on plug' coils have had many notable issues (in VWs and my folks' Lincoln LS, for a couple examples). The only coil problem which could damage a Pertronix is a dead short, and your car would not start at all with that condition. The Pertonix support people are first rate, I'd take what they say as gospel.

Austin-Healeys are simple, robust cars--they didn't win road rallies on looks alone--with a couple known weak spots (fuel pumps, suspension brackets). Just keep at it; you'll get the 'bugs' out eventually, and your Healey will be as reliable as any older, non-computer-controlled car. Even the bad rep of Lucas electronics is overstated; many of the issues--at least, the intermittent ones--are due to corrosion or improper installation of the funky wiring connectors. If I'm on the right thread, this car had sat for a long time without being driven very often; Healeys like to be driven, and driven hard.

Have you changed out the rotor, yet?

 

[Keoke]

Not to prolong this discussion that I started, but I have encountered another issue while shopping for a spare/replacement Pertronix. A couple of LU-165 units listed on eBay include a fixed list of proper fitments, none Healeys, and a pull down that lets you identify other cars, in my case a '60 BN7 with negative ground. The answer comes back, and this in red letters, warning that this unit is not correct for the Healey I identified. But the Pertronix business site, upon being given the dizzy in my car, DM6A 40581A, says the LU-165 is the proper unit.

SHHHHHh:

Don't tell,:

Any six clyn Healey 12v0lt negative ground MODULE will work in your car.

OH! N forget what E-Bay said,listen to Pertronics--:highly_amused:

 

[red57]

Originally Posted by RDKeysor "I get a good spark between the coil and the wire to the dizzy but didn't get anything at a plug wire, as described earlier."

Two things come to my mind:

First, If you have spark at the coil then it suggests the Pertronics is doing it's job or there wouldn't be a spark. A miss-fire, or erratic firing could be the Pertronics but you said it didn't do those things, it just quit running so it seems like the Pertronics is working, and the problem is elsewhere.

Second, If you have a good spark from the coil to the coil wire as you said - the spark has to go to ground somewhere or there wouldn't be a spark. Normally the ground would be the plug, but if you aren't getting spark to the plug, it has to be getting to ground somewhere and my first guess would be the rotor or cap & wires as other have suggested.

I run a Mallory dual point dizzy and after several years fighting bad condensers, I finally put in a Pertronics about 10 years ago and haven't had a single problem since. I do carry a set of points and condenser with me at all times just in case.

Just my .02
Dave

 

[John Turney]

Originally Posted by RDKeysor "I get a good spark between the coil and the wire to the dizzy but didn't get anything at a plug wire, as described earlier."

That's why I suggest you check the rotor before spending $$ on a new Pertronics!!

 

[DerekJ]

Its a bit confusing to use the word 'spark' other than when we are talking about a spark at the plug.

I agree with everything Bob has said, especially about the ruggedness and reliability of Healeys. I never consider a drive in my car to be a test drive, I expect it to get where I'm going and there is no logical reason why it shouldn't. In their day they performed amazing feats of reliability such as the one at Montlhery near Paris, where a 100-Six ran continuously for 4 days and nights at an average speed of of 98mph!

Sometimes a Pertronix will just fail for no apparent reason, it just bad luck and one of those things. It happened to me a year ago, but my Healey looks after me and it happened in my driveway! I put another one in and everything was fine. I actually use a British variant called Powerspark but they are exactly the same as Pertronix but only cost £28. I sent it back to Powerspark and they confirmed the failure of the module and sent me a new one for free.

 

[Keoke]

Originally Posted by RDKeysor "I get a good spark between the coil and the wire to the dizzy but didn't get anything at a plug wire, as described earlier."

That's why I suggest you check the rotor before spending $$ on a new Pertronics!!

YEP
The higher voltage generated by the faster switching time of the pertronics can cause failure of rotors with a rivet in them, as the rivet shortens the rotor's path to ground.

 

[Keoke]

Sometimes a Pertronix will just fail for no apparent reason


Derekj

That is true:

The reliability of electronic components rarely see 100%,however ,they significantly exceed that of their mechanical counter parts.

Consequently:

If it demonstrates a reliability of 97% then 3% of that batch could have a defect and you were just one of the recipients.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

I too, carry a spare Pertronix (and points, too!). I work on the principle that if I have a spare in the boot, the one on the car won't fail (of course, the corollary is also true). My Pertronix is connected with spade lugs, so can probably be swapped out quicker than changing out points. Unfortunately, Pertronix made a slight change to the design--the module<->base alignment is slightly different--so the timing will be off if I do change. I figure I can time it by 'feel'--and pinging--well enough to get me home.

 

[Michael Oritt]

Derek--

When I say that "every drive is a test drive" I simply mean that one must be ready for anything and I have taken my 100 on a number of such test drives around the USA--coast to coast on one occasion and border to border (that is, Canada to Mexico) on another. Plus several shorter trips of a thousand miles or less.

The one serious problem I have ever experienced since purchasing my car in 1999 was a broken gearbox (a notorious weakness in BN1's) when I was in California about 1500 miles from home. Fortunately I was within a 100 miles of Smith Brodie's shop in Thousand Oaks and I bought a Toyota five-speed from him and drove back to Maryland without further incident.

Otherwise the only failures I have had were Lucas points-related and they were easy to deal with as I carried a spare set of points. I ultimately installed a Mallory Unilite and that has given me about 50K trouble-free miles but probably only because I have always had a spare module with me.

I'll agree that Healeys are reliable but if one means to get where one is going he must be ready to deal with what happens.

 

[andrea]

Only to add one possible solution to the ignition problems.
From the restoration my car have - Negative grounding - Alternator -123 Dizzy ignition system - and LUCAS Sport coil
at the moment NO issues at all -6000 Miles on the spedometer
NOTE : 123 was the solution for fit one NEW mechanical dizzy with integrated electronic - costs less than one complete rebuild of the original distributor (in Europe) - is a native eletronic project - large diffusion on European cars is a warranty of overall goodness
NOT DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY INTERESTED IN 123 BUSINESS

https://picasaweb.google.com/112770819864514987162/AHSPINTEROGENO#5748758259392365970

 

[Michael Oritt]

I forgot to mention that on another fairly long trip (to Conclave 2001 in Minnesota) the head gasket blew in Duluth a day after the event ended.
I was fortunate to make the acquaintance of Bob Bell, a local Healey owner, and when we pulled the head we found metal missing, probably from predetonation, corrosion or both, between cylinders 1 and 2. Bob was an accomplished welder and repaired the head well enough so that I could drive back to Maryland. Shortly thereafter I bought a DW AL head and carry a spare head gasket in the boot.

I don't want to morph this topic into a discussion of cylinder heads and simply want to point out that if we want to use our cars for anything beyond recreational trips to the local convenience store we should carry along the parts, tools and knowledge that might be necessary in order to get where we want--and home. Some feel that a AAA card and a cell-phone are substitutes which is another discussion.

QUOTE=Michael Oritt;999549]Derek--

When I say that "every drive is a test drive" I simply mean that one must be ready for anything and I have taken my 100 on a number of such test drives around the USA--coast to coast on one occasion and border to border (that is, Canada to Mexico) on another. Plus several shorter trips of a thousand miles or less.

The one serious problem I have ever experienced since purchasing my car in 1999 was a broken gearbox (a notorious weakness in BN1's) when I was in California about 1500 miles from home. Fortunately I was within a 100 miles of Smith Brodie's shop in Thousand Oaks and I bought a Toyota five-speed from him and drove back to Maryland without further incident.

Otherwise the only failures I have had were Lucas points-related and they were easy to deal with as I carried a spare set of points. I ultimately installed a Mallory Unilite and that has given me about 50K trouble-free miles but probably only because I have always had a spare module with me.

I'll agree that Healeys are reliable but if one means to get where one is going he must be ready to deal with what happens.[/QUOTE]

 

[RAC68]

Michael,

I really appreciate your perspective and really feel the Healey is quite reliable. However, for the most part, when something happens you are really on your own and ingenuity is paramount to getting home on your own wheels.

A while back and while still using points, I finally got my wife to come with me and attend the British Invasion in New Hampshire. When arriving from NJ, the Healey began to misfire and I started the investigation to find and fix the issue as it would never have gotten us back to NJ in that condition. Raining for most of the show, my attempts failed and just after everyone went home, I did not secure the cap properly and broke the rotor bottom clip. Not carrying spares at the time (never needed any), I cleaned the cap and, secured the rotor in place with some borrowed gasket cement. We tensely drove home and, surprisingly, made it without one hint of a backfire while driving at highway speeds.

Back in my much much younger days I would have looked at this experience as an adventure. Today, my sensitivity to inconvenience has increased to the point of seeing this as a concern and would look to bypass any of these adventures by carrying anything I can think of that could eliminate any issues I imagine.

Ray (64BJ8P1)