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Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passages?

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ktemkin

Freshman Member
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'56 TR3

Engine and compartment fairly original--oil change sticker from '56 still affixed to the inner fender.

Pulled the thermostat housing assembly off the block to change the thermostat to the new, skirted variety. Coolant level dropped to the level of the top of the head--still a lot of coolant in the block. Decided to pull the water pump to swap out with another water pump, so I went to release some of the coolant remaining in the block using the block petcock. Freed up the petcock, opened it up, nothing came out. Cleaned out the petcock with a 7/32" drill bit. Went in about 3" repeatedly pulling out hard, dry carbon deposits, BUT NO COOLANT!!!

Pulled the petcock off the block and, with a larger drill bit, cleaned out more hard, dry carbon deposits. STILL NO COOLANT!!!

Took a rubber-tipped air nozzle, at 120 psi, sealed it against the petcock boss and opened up the nozzle. NOTHING!!!

It appears I've got a block that's filled with an appreciable amount of sediment.

So what do I do?

Does anyone have any suggestions that don't involve pulling the engine?

I'm not thrilled with the idea of using caustic flushes. Any suggestions with something that is less damaging?

Thanks.
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

With the head off there is some room to poke around the cylinder sleeves. I had some minor accumulation of crud down in there and used a thin tube attached to a shop vac to suck it out. How successful this would be for you probably depends on how solid the stuff is.

Perhaps someone with more experience can answer how much of a problem this stuff is. Certainly the really important cooling goes on up in the head -- in fact, didn't some racers actually fill the jacket in the block to keep coolant from flowing thru there? Sounds crazy and I don't know the advantage but seems like I've heard of such a thing.
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

I'm not a big fan of the caustic flushes, either, but it might be worth trying some Prestone Super Flush or similar...and then continue prodding around in the block drain hole. That assumes that you'll see something come out after the flush. If you don't, then you've got blockage that might require what Geo suggests: head off and probing from above.
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

I had the same plugging at the petcock and it took about 4 inches of baling wire digging in there mostly to the right to finally clear the crud out of there. I seem to remember that a drill bit only went in less than an inch into the hole and then I was able to work a 90 degree bend into the hole to keep chipping away at the buildup. Once I got it flowing it was pretty easy to chip the rest away and then stuff really started flushing out. A high pressure nozzle (looks like a mini brass old-fashioned fire nozzle) stuffed in there worked a good deal of crap out the front outlets. I'm a little concerned about what might still be back in the driver's side rear of the block but I've not had any overheating problems since I flushed it out really good.

After I had exhausted all my chipping and hose options I then ran the prestone stuff through it twice with a couple of short runs. I then put a box of baking soda in the rad with water only and took a longer run. That seemed to really work a bunch of crap out too. After that I ran the high pressure hose stream through in every combination I could think of from every opening while holding closed other openings except one.

It's running completely clear now and the antifreeze water mix has stayed perfectly clean ever since.

Unless you are planning on pulling the head anyway I'd try this first. You probably can get it pretty clean with persistence.

Good Luck!
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

Well I guess you could sell me that old no good 56 and I could suffer the fixing of it. Of course, I would have to get it pretty cheap because I am cheap. Anyways, I would perhaps start with pulling off the water pump. Number one piston (sleeve) is just behind that and number four is back at the drain. They are connected down that side of the engine. You should have a clearer picture of the problem then and perhaps get some water to move freely between those points. In addition, the water pump bolt on the driver’s side goes right into the block cavity and water should come out that hole. The other two holes are plugged in the casting. Be careful with the drill bits because that object you are hitting in the back of the engine at the drain plug is perhaps number four sleeve; it is only about an inch in.

Sp53
 
Aloha,

I have had good luck clearing crud from the block on my TR3 using the high pressure nozzle Jim mentioned. This is often sold as a sweeper nozzle, a non adjustable brass nozzle about $2 to $3. Add to that, a piece of brake line by soldering to the nozzle (flange one end, insert in the nozzle) to make a water lance. You can direct the high pressure/high velocity water down each side of the block with the water pump removed. The brake line is also small enough to to insert in the block petcock. Back in the days of steam powered ships, the Navy used water lances to clean the inside of boiler tubes and it was very effective. The advantages are it is non caustic and you are eliminate the potential of damaged caused by drill bits or other metal probes. It is messy, but I would try this before removing the head. Good luck.

Safety Fast,
Dave
 
Do not use flushing compounds thru your heater core run. Disconnect - bipass first. These corrosive fluids should not hurt the block but will perforate rad and heater cores.
The rad itself should be recored anyhow
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

Two choices:
1. Sell me the car and I will worry about it, or...

2. I am in the process of rebuilding a TR3 engine completely and I will tell you that after pulling the 4 cylinder liners out, the inside of the engine was one big pile of dried crud. The most obvious areas of crud were the ports where the water pump entered the block. These areas would be impossible to clean out short of taking all removeable parts of the block off, including the head, and scraping, chipping and cutting the crud out. Sounds like your engine is as mine was, sat up for 30 years. Not a pretty sight. If you want to save the car, and the values of the TR3 are on the rise, then do it half-way right and be done with it.

Not good news.


There really are no effective shortcuts for cleaning out a seriously crudded engine block, short of removing the engine.



Bill
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

I was mechanic for the DOD during the 70's. We had a kit for cleaning vehicle cooling systems. It had three components.
First was a caustic cleaning agent which was added with water after draining the system first. Then the engine was warmed up and ran for a period of time.
Second was a nutralizing agent that was added with water after the system was drained of the first solution.
Third was a silica treatment that coated the system and protected it.
This system worked great and we never had a problem with corroded radiators or heater cores from it.
I have no idea where or if it might be available.
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

Yes Bill and Geo make good points the best way to get that crud out would be taking the head off. I remember a funny story. I had the head off a tr3 and was doing that very thing when I looked down in the engine and say this Big snaking looking tap worm thing in there between 2 &3 piston sleeve. I mean it looked alive; I actually jumped back. (I was in high school in the 60’s) Anyways, I finally got the courage up and grabbed it out of there. It was piece of rubber silicone about ¾ of and inch in diameter and the length of the water pump circumference approximately 10inchs. What had happen is somebody used silicone for gasket material and inner piece pinched off in the block ending up looking like a clear rubber worm. How bizarre bizarre. The lesson is do not use silicone unless you are sure where it is going. I would like to add if that was my engine before I pulled the head off: I would disconnect the hoses, pull the water pump housing off, the heater valve out at the head, the drain plug out and get down and dirty and clear that baby out. Pulling the head usually opens up about a 1000-dollar bill because you would want to grind the valves buy new gaskets yada yada yada.
Sp53
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

Thank you all for the ideas, especially SP53--for your concern for my mental health.

I like the high pressure nozzle idea. I've got a spare short block here which I could use to practice my technique on. To get a good shot at everything, it looks like it would be best to remove the front apron/radiator.

On the other hand, I've already got the thermostat assembly off the head, the carbs and manifolds are off (this all started out as a carb rebuild). The only thing left to pull the head is a hose (which I was planning on replacing) and the nuts.

Looks like I'll just pull the head.

But boy, I promised myself, when I bought this car, I wouldn't start taking it apart--that I would do the minimum to just enjoy the car.

How do I get myself sucked in to this process?

Anyone in the northern suburbs of Chicago, want to stop by for a head-pulling party, write me back.

Thanks everyone.
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you all for the ideas, especially SP53--for your concern for my mental health.

But boy, I promised myself, when I bought this car, I wouldn't start taking it apart--that I would do the minimum to just enjoy the car.

How do I get myself sucked in to this process?


[/ QUOTE ]

It is simply a common affliction of LBC owners! Enjoy!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

[quote
Looks like I'll just pull the head.

But boy, I promised myself, when I bought this car, I wouldn't start taking it apart--that I would do the minimum to just enjoy the car.

How do I get myself sucked in to this process?

Anyone in the northern suburbs of Chicago, want to stop by for a head-pulling party, write me back.

Thanks everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my version of being BORN AGAIN . It's almost a religious thing with me, and it feels good. Don't be ashamed, it's good for the soul to tear into your little baby and see the rebirth of a true legend.


Bill
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

Hi kmetkin, I reread your questions on the cooling problem and was curious about the substance that came out the drain hole. You said that it looked like carbon deposits. I am surprised because carbon is black and I imagined a rusty brown or perhaps clear.
Sp53
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

Your question isn't motivated by your continued concern for my mental heath, is it? You're not building a case for me selling you the TR3, are you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

After I sent that initial description, I had reservations about using the "carbon" word. Although it was very dark, it was not carbon black. The material came out in hard chunks and quickly disintigrated into a very dark, very dry power. I don't think the powder has an association with what you are thinkin'.

But thanks.

If anyone has an old, junk, 83mm piston ring laying around, that I could have, I'd like to talk to you. I'll need it when I pull my head and use it to do the de-coking. Please get a hold of me through the forum's message center. Thanks.
 
Here is another method I've used for cleaning an engines cooling system..... Drain the system and add some automatic diswasher soap, (I like the liquid type). Refill with water and drive. Let the engine come up to temperature for at least an hour. Dishwasher soap is VERY powerful, and is heat activated, (won't start to work until it's at least 140 degrees). It won't foam up either in the engnie. Let the engine cool and flush good after you drain the engine of the soap mixture.

Don
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

Don,
You are either brilliant or completely insane! Man, that sounds like it might work! Couple of questions: How much to use, brand specific (I know, this sounds smartass but I am serious) and does it have the potential to harm anything at all, like the thermostat. I have use Cascade to clean my hands when they get really dirty and that stuff is powerful.

Bill
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

No specific brand.......and I use probably 1/2 cup, which might be a bit too much, but what the heck......Won't harm anything that I'm aware of, or at least it's never done any damage to any cars I've done this trick to. By the way, the diswasher is another good tool to clean parts in. I first get the big chunks off, then throw them in while the wife isn't at home......

Don
 
Re: Suggestions concerning plugged cooling passage

[ QUOTE ]
then throw them in while the wife isn't at home......


[/ QUOTE ]

I tried that once. The key word here is once....

Bill
 
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