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LarryK said:
College is fine, but the young ones better have a back up trade job. I studied Business etc., but always had a mechanical back up. Each time the recession took out a job, I resorted to wrenching on boats or cars, never without a job, and still looked good on a resume.
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Similar experiences here, Larry. Never lacked for a job.

But I once had a shop owner question my resume, as if he didn't believe my background, seemed convinced I'd "padded" my C.V. This shop was empty wall to wall but for one shiny-new blue MAC roll-cab, huge and with a stereo in it! Young kid just out of trade school and obviously up to his neck in debt... The place didn't have anything but a compressor, no air lines, not even a drop-light to be seen. It took me a couple hours into the job to see the owners were thieves, so I left. Later information confirmed my conclusion: only reason they were hiring was they'd had a full-blown mutiny where every one of six techs had walked out on the Friday before, as soon as they were handed their checks. Tools and all.
 
The Building Trades will always be hands on. If one follows a family member or picks one out of the dark you may lose a day to weather or the like but it will still be there. Plummer's know how water goes down hill. A Welder knows to keep his Rod dry. An Electrician will tell what is Hot or Not. But an Elevator man does it all from digging a hole to programing a computer system and our elevators do have ups and downs but they all go to the top floor, Just saying after 40 years. Madflyer
 
Explain to me how increasing the minimum wage helps. The company would need to increase the price of product (whether a burger or television or whatever) to make up for the increase cost of doing business. But the sales tax or income tax would would increase so it seems to me that the government is the only winner. Remember when McDonalds had 19 cent burgers? Now my computer key board doesn't even have a cent sign. Want more money, get a skill or degree that is in demand.
 
Out of college, I started in the back office of a Wall Street brokerage firm. Ike had a heart attack and the market lost half its value. I quit a week later, took a job with magazine publisher but found conditions impossible and quit/got fired, looked for work but it was 1957 and jobs were scarce. My good friend was in his last year of dental school in Boston and invited me up to room with him and one other student. I drove up in my TR3, but jobs were scarce up there too and after three days of tramping around in the bitter cold and snow, my roommate said " You know how to work on cars. Why not get a job in a foreign car shop." I went into Foreign Motors and two other shops - no dice, but late Friday, I checked into Allied Foreign Cars on Beacon St. and got hired on the spot. I drove home to CT, picked up my tools and headed back to Boston. I worked there for 6 months till Bart graduated from Tufts Dental School, then said Sayonara and moved back to CT. Then publishing, advertising and finally Law School. Graduated 1962 and never looked back. Only trouble with working with your hands - not easy or even possible when you get old. Ask me how I know.
 
tahoe healey said:
Explain to me how increasing the minimum wage helps. The company would need to increase the price of product (whether a burger or television or whatever) to make up for the increase cost of doing business. But the sales tax or income tax would would increase so it seems to me that the government is the only winner. Remember when McDonalds had 19 cent burgers? Now my computer key board doesn't even have a cent sign. Want more money, get a skill or degree that is in demand.
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You've got an excellent grasp of economics, sir. Unfortunately there are too many who view it differently. "Supply and demand" don't factor into their thinking, nor does "inflation" or "free market". They are fine with government being the arbiter of wages, along with many other things in their lives. They willingly abrogate their personal responsibility to legislators. That has baffled me for most of my existence.
 
I puzzle over the “everything should be free” and “everything should be a living wage for a family” crowds. First, what does that do to someone’s drive to improve themselves?? 40 years ago I didn’t make anywhere near what I’ve moved up the ladder to. Couldn’t have afforded a house or much of anything considered a luxury. But it gave me the desire to learn and take on more responsibility.

And I don’t believe in the free college idea either. While I agree there needs to be a restructuring of how it is paid for, and what should really be included in the education experience, so kids don’t have house payment size debt to me it means more when you have some of your own “skin” in the experience by paying for some or all of it. Free makes something too easy to not take seriously, to apply all your effort and get as much as you can out of it. Witness how many rich kids who never worked a day show up with drug and alcohol problems, arrests and so on in the social news. You see so much less of that from those who had to work and sacrifice for what they wanted.
 
Working your way up doesn't get it with the newbies these days. But, then a lot think they should start out equal to Mom and Dad I had a fellow worker in our grocery chain buy a new brick ranch house on a couple acres. It would be fine,but we weren't making that much money. It cost 4 times my house. I asked him why he bought so expensive a house. This was in the late 70s. He bought because his and his wife's parents had one and they liked it. Well, we lost our jobs to recession a couple years later. He lost his house (had to find another career), I just went automotive until recession resolved and I went to the USPS.
 
LarryK said:
Working your way up doesn't get it with the newbies these days. But, then a lot think they should start out equal to Mom and Dad I had a fellow worker in our grocery chain buy a new brick ranch house on a couple acres. It would be fine,but we weren't making that much money. It cost 4 times my house. I asked him why he bought so expensive a house. This was in the late 70s. He bought because his and his wife's parents had one and they liked it. Well, we lost our jobs to recession a couple years later. He lost his house (had to find another career), I just went automotive until recession resolved and I went to the USPS.
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Similar happening to my experience in a steel mill. We had a "new hire" show up, a young man in his early twenties, he was ecstatic to have been hired. NDT Inspectors were paid VERY well at this mill, he was convinced he would retire after twenty-some years at the job. The industry was not doing well as a whole, due to foreign imported products and anyone paying attention could have seen it. Instead, the kid was telling me he'd "bought" a new Corvette, got married and bought a HOUSE! When I tried to explain to him he was making a big mistake, it was: "Nooo. My grandfather worked here to retirement, my dad is going to retire in a few years. I'm gonna do the same!"

I bailed within a year and went to the car dealership I'd worked for in the past, the mill shut down operations a couple years later. The guy had NO skill-set beyond what he'd been trained to do for the company. No idea what happened to him but sure it wasn't pleasant for him.
 
Was never real easy, but we made it.:encouragement:
 
I was an Indentured Apprentice.
It is a pity the British apprentice system is not in use over here. I started out working for a company as an apprentice. It was a larger company with a great program. 30 of us started out in the training school, some were mechanical craft apprentices others electrical craft apprentices and a few of us were technician apprentices. After 1 year in the training school we were farmed out around the company to further our training. All throughout the apprentice we got 1 day off to attend college. Our grades were sent to the company and we heard about it if we were slacking.
Pay was about 1/4 of full pay but we were a considerable cost to the company the first few years.
At the end we got our papers that hold the same value as a degree in many circles as we had real world experience.

I went on into the Special Purpose machine department where they built 1 off machines for use within the company. They continued t allow me to attend college 1 day a week for about 6 more years. It was 1 day and several night classes every week.

A long story to say I got a very firm foundation in machine work that has kept me employed all my working life in various companies and different jobs.

David
 
I have not seen one like that in the US. I have worked on similar units but they are not open to public they are plants, warehouses, and parking garages for staff only but more of a step system and you can not go over the top. US rules make it hard with safety officers ( WHAT IF's ) controlling the products. Elevators Co. are owned by large Corporations out side the USA. World Wide to say the least Germany, Finland, Japan, are really the big three. Most people when they think OTIS They are small compared to German Co. Thyssen. In my 40 years I have worked on units at Dam's, Golden Gate Bridge, Nuk plants inside the rector, Missiles gantry's, Folsom Prison, 50 plus story buildings. They have an elevator for the C 5 aircraft tail section on rail tracks just to get to the top light and control sections. Man lifts on building construction sites.
It is a trade like no other. Madflyer
 
Well you have got off track as to how the Government is spending our TAX dollars a bit. Just to set the record straight the money not there and has not been there for a long time, so if you mixed green ink it turns to red as soon as they print more money. And the talk of a living wage when I got married in 1970 my wife ( now of 50 years ) and I each made $2.00 hr she worked days I worked nights. I had a car payment on the TR 250. I bought a house $ 12,000.00 and my mother cosigned gave me no money. payment was $98.00 a month. My job was at a gas station my school was aircraft AP so hands on work put me to elevators a union job for 40 years. I believe one may need a hand up but not a hand out. Just saying Madflyer
 
DavidApp said:
I was an Indentured Apprentice.
It is a pity the British apprentice system is not in use over here. I started out working for a company as an apprentice. It was a larger company with a great program. 30 of us started out in the training school, some were mechanical craft apprentices others electrical craft apprentices and a few of us were technician apprentices. After 1 year in the training school we were farmed out around the company to further our training. All throughout the apprentice we got 1 day off to attend college. Our grades were sent to the company and we heard about it if we were slacking.
Pay was about 1/4 of full pay but we were a considerable cost to the company the first few years.
At the end we got our papers that hold the same value as a degree in many circles as we had real world experience.

I went on into the Special Purpose machine department where they built 1 off machines for use within the company. They continued t allow me to attend college 1 day a week for about 6 more years. It was 1 day and several night classes every week.

A long story to say I got a very firm foundation in machine work that has kept me employed all my working life in various companies and different jobs.

David
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One of the few real friends I have is an ex-pat Brit, he's got his Guilds of London Certificate, told me how he'd achieved it. He came here with a sack of hand tools and a couple hundred dollars, in 1980. He's built a successful business. You're right about the US lacking a good apprenticeship program for various trades. A shame, really. LarryK's earlier post sums it up; too many of the folks just starting out believe they are owed for just breathing. Professional workmanlike performance results are secondary.
 
The British apprentice system comes from the old tradition where the trade secrets were passed on to the next generation of craftsmen. The only way into a lot of trades was to be apprenticed to a master in the trade. When you graduated it was often a big celebration.
When I was leaving school my parents and I spoke with a master surgical instrument maker about getting me apprenticed with him. My parents would pay for the privilege of me working for him. A bit like paying for a private college education,
During the interview I asked how the pliers hinge joint was made where one leg passes through the other instead of the normal lap joint. Was told that is one of the tricks you will learn working with me,
Photo of the type of joint on an old pair of needle point pliers. Made in Sweden.

Life would have been very different if I had gone down that road.

David.

Pliers joint.jpg
 
Pretty soon they'll give everyone $100.000 a year,& free medical care,
& nobody will have to work anymore.
 
This has been an interesting discussion but, while I don't necessarily agree or disagree strongly with anything in particular, some concern has been expressed that some of the posts are walking right close to the line, so I will close this thread at this time.
 
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