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TR2/3/3A Stiff TR3 Steering

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Twosheds

Twosheds

Darth Vader
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Yesterday I drove the TR3 for the first time this year. The steering was really stiff, especially to the right. I know TR3s require high steering wheel force to turn even when everything is right, but this is excessive force. I don't remember it being this bad when I put the car away last fall.

I think that the parts that can cause stiff steering are:

Misaligned two-piece shaft
Steering unit
Idler arm
Silentbloc bushings
Tie rod ends
Trunnions
Ball joints

Did I miss anything?
In the spirit of "Easy Things First, Hard Things Later", here is my plan:

Grease everything, put oil in steering unit
If that doesn't work, pull tie rods and idler arm and check/replace bad parts
If everything is O.K., rebuild steering unit or disassemble front suspension and replace trunnions and ball joints, don't know which to do first

Any comments or guidance will be most appreciated!
 
Twosheds said:
Misaligned two-piece shaft
Steering unit
Idler arm
Silentbloc bushings
Tie rod ends
Trunnions
Ball joints

Grease everything, put oil in steering unit
If that doesn't work, pull tie rods and idler arm and check/replace bad parts
If everything is O.K., rebuild steering unit or disassemble front suspension and replace trunnions and ball joints, don't know which to do first
Click to expand...

DrJ -

I'm in the middle of redoing my steering and suspension right now. Started with the steering because one of the innet tie-rod ends was lose.

What I would do first is to get the front tires off the ground and try the steering. If it's stiff only to one side, make sure that the idler is 1)bolted tight and 2) full of grease or EP90. The idler is just like a small trunnion in that it is threaded in and cushioned on a hydraulic of fluid or grease. Maybe the grease hardened over the winter. It's two bolts to remove it after you get the center linkage out. I pulled the apron, radiator, etc for access.

Now since I'm there, I couldn't put my shiny Konis on the really crappy looking suspension so I pulled that too and am redoing the whole front end.

But for you, check the idler and the trunnion fluid, both can use EP90 or modern synthetic grease. What I found when I took the suspension apart was that the grease passages were clogged from years of old grease and the new stuff was simply not getting in there. So check those too.

Also loosen the stator tube nut and bleed off some old steering fluid as you fill with new.

None of the other up and down stuff really has anything to do with the side to side stuff.
 
PeterK said:
None of the other up and down stuff really has anything to do with the side to side stuff.
Click to expand...

Except that you have to take the up-and-down stuff apart to get the side-to-side stuff off! Trunnions and ball joints, that is.

Thanks for the input, PeterK, I'm hoping it's just lack of lubrication like you say.
 
If the ball joint at the top of the vertical link is not truly vertical, the rotation of the vertical link between the ball joint down to the trunnion will be stiff. There are splines of a sort on the OD of where the ball joint is bolted to the upper wishbone. These splines can hurt you or help you. If these splines cause the ball joint to move off the true vertical when you are tightening the bolt to thge rear of the upper wishbone, the part extending down below the ball won't be aligned axially with the vertical link.

Was it OK last year ? Then what has changed ? Find the answer to that question and you'll have your answer. Let us know what you find.
 
Don Elliott said:
If the ball joint at the top of the vertical link is not truly vertical, the rotation of the vertical link between the ball joint down to the trunnion will be stiff. There are splines of a sort on the OD of where the ball joint is bolted to the upper wishbone. These splines can hurt you or help you. If these splines cause the ball joint to move off the true vertical when you are tightening the bolt to thge rear of the upper wishbone, the part extending down below the ball won't be aligned axially with the vertical link.

Was it OK last year ? Then what has changed ? Find the answer to that question and you'll have your answer. Let us know what you find.
Click to expand...

Wow. I had to chew on that one for a few minutes Don.

So what you are saying is that when you tighten the nut on shaft end of the ball-joint that goes throught the upper a-arms and the spacer, and the knurls don't keep it aligned perfectly vertical, then it will be out of axis with the lower wishbone trunnion mounts and may cause binding.

I guess either way you say it, it's a mouthfull!

I am just about to re-assemble my suspension and really appreciate the timely tip. It will definitely save me some head scratching.
 
For what it's worth - first thing that popped into the sad remnant of my mind:

Tire pressure. Car hasn't been started in many moons eh? Tires low can cause some tough steering.

When I first got my TR a few months ago, the steering column had no oil whatsoever (sealing plug was missing) and the tires needed a hefty dose of air.

Tom
 
I checked and adjusted tire pressures as part of my First Spring Pre-drive Checks.

I wish it was that simple!
 
Aloha Chief Boffin,

I think in the keep it simple method, grease up everything and see if that fixes it. If that doesn't solve the problem, I would next check the idler to see if it is moving freely. This piece is not tightly sealed and a little moisture and time can seize it up. It relies on grease moving up a small slot to grease the length of the shaft. Hardened grease can easily defeat this lubrication system, but on the plus side it is easy to check and remove if necessary. The next probable item to check is steering box. Lack of oil in the box can dry out the lower bushing leading to wear.

Good luck fixing the problem. I often think we tend to imagine a small problem as a major repair and forget to look to the simple and easy things first before we embark on a major overhaul.
 
Hi John:
Is this the original steeering lash up? How many miles on it, any previous work? My experience is that when one thing happens, especially with steering that it can cascade into many slightly malfunctioning parts. I guess what I'm saying it depends on the last time you did somthing and what did you do.
It was simple with mine, EVERYTHING had to be replaced :smile:

Good luck John, keep us posted, Regards, Tinkerman
 
Tinkerman said:
Hi John:
Is this the original steeering lash up? How many miles on it, any previous work? My experience is that when one thing happens, especially with steering that it can cascade into many slightly malfunctioning parts. I guess what I'm saying it depends on the last time you did somthing and what did you do.
It was simple with mine, EVERYTHING had to be replaced :smile:

Good luck John, keep us posted, Regards, Tinkerman
Click to expand...

Tink:

I rebuilt the steering unit and replaced trunnions, idler arm, silentblocs, ball joints, and maybe tie rod ends in '96. Years ago, but not that many miles ago. But calendar time may be the enemy in this battle.
 
I got 16 years and 94,000 miles out of my set of front suspension parts. I just replaced the silent-bloc bushes again and the idler arm (it replaced the original after 49 years and with 175,000 miles) just to get it all a bit better. At the same time I replaced all the rubber boots. My trunnions have 94,000 miles on them but I have just replaced all the inner and outer wishbone bushes. So, in my humble opinion John, I would easily venture to say that your parts from 1996 are not in bad shape.

Is it possible that this spring, your soggy bottom rose to the level half way up the hubcaps on you TR and got a few of these parts a bit soggy too ?
 
Don Elliott said:
I got 16 years and 94,000 miles out of my set of front suspension parts. I just replaced the silent-bloc bushes again and the idler arm (it replaced the original after 49 years and with 175,000 miles) just to get it all a bit better. At the same time I replaced all the rubber boots. My trunnions have 94,000 miles on them but I have just replaced all the inner and outer wishbone bushes. So, in my humble opinion John, I would easily venture to say that your parts from 1996 are not in bad shape.

Is it possible that this spring, your soggy bottom rose to the level half way up the hubcaps on you TR and got a few of these parts a bit soggy too ?
Click to expand...

I told Tinkerman a lie. I just checked my receipts and I didn't replace the trunnions during The Great Front End Project of '96. I last replaced them in '81. Will you forgive me?

As for the Soggy Bottom, Don, I can't think of a snappy comeback. All joking aside, it is damp over in the Lab.
 
Hi John, non-needed. Good luck with your project. By the way how many miles since 81? They might be in great shape. Also do you oil your trunnions or use grease. I know that there is a field of thought that trunnions need to be oild not greased. Just a thought.
Tinkerman
 
Tinkerman said:
Hi John, non-needed. Good luck with your project. By the way how many miles since 81? They might be in great shape. Also do you oil your trunnions or use grease. I know that there is a field of thought that trunnions need to be oild not greased. Just a thought.
Tinkerman
Click to expand...

I have no clue how many miles since '81. But it's not very many.

I have put grease in the trunnions sparingly. I guess they were O.K. when I rebuilt the front end in '96 because I used them instead of replacing them.
 
Success!

He steers!

PeterK and MGTF1250Dave are the winners. The idler arm was the culprit. You two win a beverage at the next event we attend together.

Greasing didn't fix it. I then systematically disconnected things one at a time and tried the steering. When I disconnected the idler arm, the steering became easy.

I had a spare idler arm in stock. I even found some new rubber tie rod end doohickeys to replace the perished ones I took off! It's all back together and on the floor, but he wouldn't start for a test drive. I ran the battery down trying to start him without resorting to starting fluid. Oh, well, I can test him tomorrow.

Thanks to everyone who had a suggestion!
 
I would also take the floor jack and lift each wheel individually (under the spring pan) just off the pavement and try turning the steering wheel for each separately. The offending side might make itself known. Plus if you have someone turn the wheel for you, it might also be possible to feel which part is binding up or dragging. Good luck.
Tom Lains
TS8651 & 58107

PS Just saw the previous answer and that's what I get for leaving my computer on all afternoon without sending the message earlier.
 
I can't make the old idler arm move even when I strike it with a BFH. I'm amazed it steered at all!

I put plenty of grease in the replacement idler arm.
 
Tinkerman said:
I know that there is a field of thought that trunnions need to be oild not greased.
Click to expand...

Whew, is that old debate still running around ?

TR2-4 trunnions are _different_ than TR4A-6 trunnions. The early ones are not oil-tight and so need to be greased as the factory recommended. The later ones may do better with oil (as the factory recommended), but still do quite well with grease.

As far as stiff steering, I've not seen anyone mention bent vertical links as a problem, nor mis-matched upper arms and trunnions.

I would suggest a systematic approach, starting with disconnecting the outer tie rods from the steering arms and checking that each vertical link turns easily. Should be no detectable stiffness or binding ... mine literally flopped around. BTW there's a neat tool available that makes disconnecting the tie rod ends much less traumatic. Eg https://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/TA-61900.html

In my case, the big breakthrough in steering effort came when I rebuilt the steering box. Being able to keep it full of (full synthetic) gear oil; and having it properly adjusted, made a world of difference.

Oh yeah, don't let anyone sell you (later) TR4 trunnions by mistake. They look virtually identical, but have an angle built into them that will make the steering bind unless you have the later upper arms that match the angle. TR3 trunnions should be identical side-to-side; the TR4 ones aren't.
 
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