Starter motor woes

[bob hughes]

Arrrrrgh

Was down at our local Super Market over the week end just to get a few things, so took the Healey out. Well, on restarting the car down there, I missed starting up first time and went to press the starter button again and all I got was a dull thunk each time - bugger.

Tried a gentle tap with a hammer and rocking back and forth in gear - all to no avail. Tooooo embarrassed to ask for a push I phoned my friend and he came and gave me a tow to start, and I drove back and parked it straight away. Looks as if the motor has gone west and will need a rebuild. I will take it off over the next few days and give it a close inspection. Darned good job it did not fail during Goodwood.



Bob

 

[Randy Forbes]

My recommendation is to go with the newer gear reduction starter. It weighs about 1/4 the original, and may actually cost less too.

All I'll add is, your car will turn over and start so fast, it will scare you!

With my original starter, it would crank so slowly, I was ALWAYS on edge that it wasn't going to start.

 

[TimK]

On the other hand, I had a slow starting starter and put in new brushes. It now cranks fast and starts instantly when warm. I prefer to keep as many original parts as possible. Norman Nock wrote about the problem of changing the oil filter and spilling oil into the starter and over time shorting the windings or something. A rebuild may be necessary unless you buy the one Randy suggested.

 

[John Turney]

If you have the battery cutoff switch in the boot, check it. The same symptoms would happen on mine, but it was high resistance at the switch.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Bad solenoid will give the same symptom; have you tried manually closing the solenoid with the switch on?

 

[VTHealey]

The new geared starter motors are really very good. I know what you mean about the standard look, but I changed my generator and starter and it made huge difference. This kind of change can be easily reverted as long as you don't alter anything. Leave all the wiring in place just in case, and of course keep all the parts and store them carefully, but as you noted, reliability is pretty important in my book. You can leave the voltage regulator and wires in place if you put shrink tubing on the VR contacts inside the unit, you don't have to gut it.

Same with oil filter assembly. Easy to change to new spin on style which provide better filtration as well as easier to work on, but if you keep the parts, you can revert back with 2 bolts and 20 minutes of work.

I had a bad starter solenoid that included the manual switch as well, so it is possible to have a bad solenoid that also does not work on the manual switch. This can fool you in thinking that the starter is bad. If you take it out it is probably worth changing the brushes anyway, but check to see if it is really dead in case it was the solenoid. You can give it momentary juice to see if indeed it is really gone.

 

[bob hughes]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I was wondering about that solenoid, I did try it in the car park without a result, but perhaps I did not push it in far enough in to make the connection, I will give it another coat of looking at.

I will also check the battery connections, my cut off switch is not an original, - one of those new fangled things that you undo a machine screw with a plastic cover, to break the contact. I will check it however.

I was thinking of the gear reduction starter, but over here it is dearer than exchanging the old starter for a recond one - the jury is still out on that, I do have positive earth, does that present a problem with the gear reduction starter?

Cheers

Bob

 

[bob hughes]

Not sure what is going on here, but checking the wiring diagram, I should be able to put a big screw driver across the solenoid points and even if the solenoid is u/s, the starter should just revolve and there should be some sparks - result absolutely nothing. Put the faithfull test lamp on each terminal of the solenoid and to ground - nothing, looks as if the main power feed from the battery has a break in it - Oooer

There is oodles of power in the battery - accidently created a large spark when I touched the negative to ground.

Checked the battery terminals - hence the spark. no probs there.

The clunk I hear when I switch the iginition on and press the starter could be the solenoid kicking in but no main juice flowing thro to the starter.



Bob

As the old song says - Gotta get out and get under

 

[Johnny]

Bad solenoid will give the same symptom; have you tried manually closing the solenoid with the switch on?

I agree with Bob. Check the solenoid first. Then check the cable from the starter to the solenoid, they tend to be frayed under the insulation. With a lot of corrosion in the cable it presents a lot of resistance.

 

[Keoke]

Not sure what is going on here, but checking the wiring diagram, I should be able to put a big screw driver across the solenoid points .





Never in your sweet life do this you could severely burn yourself or go blind-___KEOKE

 

[bob hughes]

<span style="color: #FF0000">severely burn yourself or go blind-___</span>

I have to say that I was aware of the potential problem so manufactured a long device with an insulated handle to cater for the occassion, very little difference between that and the accidental short I created in at the battery. This idea was also the result of a conversation with a well known and respected mechanic.

However, thinking on to the results of the line testwith the light, power must be getting through of some sort as I started it with a tow and the instrument panel works, perhaps the ground that I chose for the test light was no good.





Bob

 

[Bob_Spidell]

You can get a 'remote starter' switch for just a few bucks. Basically, these jump the solenoid; however, the cheap ones are pretty flimsy and probably won't take much current for long.

As a side note, we were experiencing some (relatively) slow cranking on our 100M. My dad--being an 'old-time' mechanic--felt all the connections after one cranking episode and discovered that one of the secondary terminals on the solenoid was hot. Turns out I'd used an improperly-sized internal star washer on the connection and the washer was preventing the battery cable from making good contact on the solenoid terminal (all the current was going through just a few 'tangs' of the star washer). Replace star washer with flat washer and problem solved.

 

[VTHealey]

You can have voltage on the output of the starter solenoid after it is keyed on (or mechanically depressed), but still have a bad internal contacts connection so that it would appear that the starter motor is not working becuase you can measure 12V on the output, but in fact the contacts in the solenoid are shot and won't allow for any current to the starter motor. This is common failure mode for these and they can fool you. Just a heads up.

If you decide to trigger the starter motor to see if it will spin, note that jumping a high current device like this should be done well away from the car, battery, fuel etc. If you make your connections outside of the vehicle (jumper cables)you can test the starter without any consideration to internal wiring issues, eliminating all other variables. Also, be super careful in direct jumps like this. Due to spark potential, best to do this on the ground out of the car with the battery leads connected first. Never do anything that can spark the battery.

 

[John Turney]

Not sure what is going on here, but checking the wiring diagram, I should be able to put a big screw driver across the solenoid points .





Never in your sweet life do this you could severely burn yourself or go blind-___KEOKE

I've seen it happen (to a couple of guys who should have known better).

 

[elrey]

I'm just gonna do it till I need glasses. :wink:

 

[Keoke]

I'm just gonna do it till I need glasses. :wink:

Save your money and buy you one of them rubber tipped white sticks.--Keoke-- :wink:

 

[bob hughes]

Ok Guys

I have got the message.

I'm just going to have to pull everything apart and test it seperately.



Bob

 

[helpful_person]

Not sure what is going on here, but checking the wiring diagram, I should be able to put a big screw driver across the solenoid points .





Never in your sweet life do this you could severely burn yourself or go blind-___KEOKE

I've seen it happen (to a couple of guys who should have known better).

If you're unlucky you can weld the screwdriver to the terminals. Then the whole car could go up in flames (along with your house if the car is in the garage).

Richard

 

[bob hughes]

OK OK OK

Right, now the car is up on axle stands and the starter motor is out and I have tested it with the battery out of the car, and outside the garage in the drive, wearing my welders gloves and helmet and having carried out a risk assessment, self certified it :angel:, and then cranked her up using my jump leads.

Great the motor works. :banana:

So, now I am left with the possibility of either the lead from the battery to the solenoid and/or the solenoid itself, probably the solenoid. Is there a test? I supose I could connect the battery back up, connect one test light wire to the lead from the solenoid to the starter motor, earth the other test lamp wire and press the starter button, any other ideas?



Bob

 

[Keoke]

<span style="color: #FF0000">severely burn yourself or go blind-___</span>

I have to say that I was aware of the potential problem so manufactured a long device with an insulated handle to cater for the occassion, very little difference between that and the accidental short I created in at the battery.

This idea was also the result of a conversation with a well known and respected mechanic.


That mechanic probably flunked Lucas electrics-Keoke--

However, thinking on to the results of the line testwith the light, power must be getting through of some sort as I started it with a tow and the instrument panel works, perhaps the ground that I chose for the test light was no good.





Bob