Spitfire Spitfire or TR6 for sons first car?

[Born_Loser]

Ok, so here is the situation. I have had a Triumph in the driveway since 1985. I love them all. My son, now 15 3/4, has grown up with my Tr3. He "gets it", as far as there being no good reason to pick a Triumph over, say, a 10 year old anything. And about 100 reasons NOT too. This isn't about that - I have spent the last year and a half trying to talk him into a more practical idea. Much like my father did... My real dilemma is which one would be better suited for him? We live in the "burbs" of Tampa - so snow/cold are not a big deal. Most of his driving will be highway (50-55mph)- but, he will have some interstate driving as well (overdrive will be fitted if not already). He loves the lines of the Spit, and the price is "right" of course, compared. Our max budget - including whatever needs to be done once purchased - is $10k. The Spit fits well under that, and the TR6 is pushing it, just for a road worthy example. Looking long term, I don't think the Spit will serve him through college and beyond as well as the TR6 - but, I don't know that it has to. Watching the pricing climb for the TR6's, I cant help but think "its now or never" for them. What do you think Spit and TR6 drivers?

 

[Gliderman8]

No driver safety systems except seat belt in these cars as you know.
I would suggest as a new driver (16), it might be better to get some experience driving before making a spit or 6 an everyday driver. I drive a 6 so I'm biased in my opinion, but I would think either one would suffice.

 

[TR3driver]

Ok, I'm not a Spit or TR6 driver, but I have an opinion (and it usually stinks). There are a lot of variables here, but I would say the biggest one is what does HE want? To put up with any kind of car that old requires a large amount of dedication, a willingness to accept the bad with the good. You can't give him that, he has to feel it on his own.

Either car will "serve" through college and long beyond, as long as he is willing to go on fixing what breaks, when it breaks. Picking up a "roadworthy" TR6 for under $10k might be a bit of a challenge, but there are lots of them languishing in garages that "ran when parked". A couple hundred $$ in parts and a couple hundred hours of work would get most of them back on the road. And if he does most of the work (with your supervision and guidance) then he will know how to fix it when it breaks, not to mention lots of other things like self-reliance, the satisfaction of creating something that didn't exist before (a running car) and so on.

Personally, if those were the only two choices, I'd go for a round-tail Spit. Strange as it seems, the car fits me better than a TR6; and I like the style better as well. And there is something to be said for starting out with a car that emphasizes handling over straight-line performance. (I don't mean the TR6 doesn't handle well; only that it has more power than a Spit. Easier to get in trouble with, IMO.)

 

[Zitch]

Toyota corolla with a 5 speed. Is what I vote for.

If he can change the oil, and do a timing belt or maybe a thermostat/water pump change he might be ready. If the corolla makes it 10-18 months then talk about a British car.

I was 16 a short 20 years ago, and I wouldn't give me British Convertible.

 

[Darrell_Walker]

How does he feel about Wedges? You can get a very nice TR7 under that budget, and possibly a pretty decent TR8. While neither has air bags, they do meet much more recent safety standards than either the TR6 or Spitfire do.

 

[Born_Loser]

what does HE want?

He goes back and forth everyday. I made this post, so he could read other peoples opinions, I have given him mine already.

If he can change the oil, and do a timing belt or maybe a thermostat/water pump change he might be ready.

He has been helping me tinker on the TR3 for the last year and a half or so. Hes learning the car and tools. So far we have: done the breaks - new lines, cylinders, drums resurface, shoes...
Rebuilt the masters - refinished the housings, new reservoir, and refurbished the peddles and their assembly, while it was all apart.
Broke a ring - pulled the head, mic'd the crank and bearing, Checked the bore, honed the cylinders, replaced the rings, cleaned up the head, checked the valves. refreshed the copper head gasket, and put it back together.
Flushed the cooling system, and replaced a thermostat.
Replaced the fuse box, and set the voltage regulator.
Set the valves.
He is eager to get the car now, so he can "work on it" and it will "be ready" when he gets his license. He does drive the TR3 (he has a permit) after he works on it now.

How does he feel about Wedges? You can get a very nice TR7 under that budget, and possibly a pretty decent TR8. While neither has air bags, they do meet much more recent safety standards than either the TR6 or Spitfire do.

LOL, well, I just ran that by him....he thinks the wedges are, well, wedges. No traction there.

 

[trglory]

Ask your insurance company what they think.

 

[Born_Loser]

Ask your insurance company what they think.

Actually, the price is $6 a month difference between them, and very little more than a 10 year old Carola. The catch is, no "agreed on" value - can't get collectors insurance for a 16 year old. So, I will take a bath if the car is totaled. That is one mark in the Spits favor.

 

[TR3TR6]

I taught both of my kids how to drive using a MGB before they took drivers ed. It didn't have a lot of power and if they can drive a stick shift British car, they can drive anything. The funny thing is after they got older, they both were purchasing manual transmission cars over automatics. I've owned a Spitfire and currently have a TR6, so I've driven them both. I consider the Spit a high maintenance car. It seemed like I had to do something to it every weekend to keep it on the road. Just my 2 cents worth!

 

[Tybalt]

My answer to poll is none of the above, we'll get to that in a minute.

Seeing that my wife has one and I get to work on it, your thoughts on the Spitfire are in line with mine. I don't see it serving him as a driver for the balance of high school and then college. I like the Spitfire, but it is a relatively fragile car in my mind. With a TR250 and a TR6 myself, I would still be hesitant on the TR6 thoughts. Given the budget mentioned and the nominal prices of the TR6 now, I don't see that working for you unless you really luck into a good deal. And then we get into the maintaining of things again. The wedge cars have their own issues and parts support doesn't seem to be as good for them as it is for the earlier TR series cars. Besides, all of these are climbing on the collectibility ladder which in and of itself can present issues when one is put in use as a daily driver, especially if ungaraged as it would be at your typical college parking facility. And this is where ask the insurance company advice can really come in handy. A car that's used as a daily driver or an ungaraged car can't go legitimately on a collector policy and your typical daily driver insurance policy is just going to see a Triumph as an old crock that isn't worth any money. If you are lucky, they might allow a declared value policy for a daily driver but if so, I would expect it to come at a price. (Looks like the insurance aspect was addressed while writing this post)

My suggestion, if you want to stay within the 2 seat sports car realm, would be what I've jokingly heard is the automotive answer to everything - a Miata. I realize that this can be viewed as a bit of sacrilege on the part of a many times over British car owner, but hear me out on this. For the kind of budget you're talking about, you can get a rather nice NB series (1998 - 2005). You can also look at an NA series but now we're talking of cars that are rapidly approaching 20 years old if they haven't gotten there already and I don't care how relatively bullet proof something is, after a while stuff is going to break. Another factor with the NA and especially the earliest ones is that they too are starting to climb the collectibility ladder so it getting hard to get a really good deal on one. There is also the possibility that with the introduction of the ND series which go on sale next spring, that early NC models may be in your budget range shortly, although I continue to think that the NB is your best bet. It's somewhat more refined than an NA, but is still raw enough to have a somewhat Spartan feel like that of the Triumphs, but with air conditioning, nice to have in the Tampa area on occasion. The NC is a "better car" than the NA or NB, but I'm not so sure that I would say it's a "better sports car." The NB is not as complicated as the NC, has that bullet proof Mazda twin cam engine that can be built to take well in excess of 250 HP as opposed to the MZR engine they share with Ford (not a bad engine but not as robust as the old Mazda twin cam), good parts supplies and lots of aftermarket support, insurance is reasonable (relatively speaking, a 16 year olds insurance rates are rather scary no matter what it seems), etc.

If you've never given them much thought, here's a link to a pretty decent Miata site to check out:

https://miatanet.com/

Turns out that there are a large number of British cars owned by users of that site, I bet that there's a fair number of users of this site that have a Miata (or several) stashed in their garage keeping the British cars company. In the interest of full disclosure there is an NC with a retractable hardtop sharing space with the Triumphs in our garage.

 

[HealeyRick]

I'd vote Miata, too. Unless you can ensure a Triumph with dead nuts reliability, the cool factor of having an old British sports car will wear off pretty soon after your son is late for school, misses football practice, can't make it to a date, etc, because the Triumph is out of commission. And think of what you'd be letting yourself in for, basically adopting the responsibility for another lbc. Do you want to have to drop everything to help it get running again because he needs to get to an after school job? I'd go for the reliability of a Japanese car for him and you can still both enjoy your Triumph.

 

[TR3driver]

The catch is, no "agreed on" value - can't get collectors insurance for a 16 year old. So, I will take a bath if the car is totaled. That is one mark in the Spits favor.

Talk to them about "stated value". With "stated value", you state a value up front (which determines the rate) and then, if the car does get damaged, they make a determination of what it was worth when it got wrecked. I forget how long I've been with Mercury, but I've been through this twice with them, and I did not "take a bath" either time. Their valuation process is to find "comps", meaning comparable cars that have sold recently in the area. Of course that could be a problem if you have a 100 point concours restoration, but I don't think that's what you have in mind.

First time, my 59 TR3A was in a 4 car chain collision. I hadn't upped the insurance as prices went up and their comps (which they presented for my review) showed clearly that I was under-insured. So, they wrote me a check for the full "stated" amount, plus towing and storage; plus I got to keep the car with it's unharmed OD transmission, alloy flywheel, gear drive starter and so on. (The frame was crumpled and broken, I didn't really want to repair it anyway.)

Second time I had enough insurance to repair it. Couldn't find a shop willing to give an estimate, so they made me an offer and I made them a counter offer. We settled for something like $85 less than my estimate (which was very close to your ceiling). This time, they supplied the towing and storage.

If your company won't talk to you about stated value, try calling a Mercury agent. (No financial interest, just a satisfied customer. From what I hear, a satisfied insurance customer is a rarity, they must be doing something right.) Oh, one thing though, Mercury would only do the stated value thing if I had all my cars insured with them. That's been no problem either, except that for awhile, they insisted that I claim the Buick as my daily driver (which dropped the rate a little) even though the TR is what I drive to work

 

[poolboy]

Both are too small and too inconspicuous to other drivers nowadays, especially to those using a phone while driving their kids around.
It's hard to believe you'd even give a 15 year old a choice of either of those 2 cars for a daily driver.

 

[dklawson]

As brief as I can make this....

We were faced with this several years ago (choosing between an MGB and Spitfire) and chose a Spitfire for our older son. He worked with me to get the car roadworthy and learned along the way. The car died on him a couple of times but he always managed. It is a bit slow and cannot carry much cargo... obviously only two people. However, some of his girlfriends were forbidden to ride in the car. Their parents felt the car was too dangerous for their daughters to ride in. I can understand their concerns.

Regardless, I would not consider this car, whatever you decide on, to be a long term decision. While it is possible to use a British car as a daily driver, your son is likely to want the classic car for fair weather pleasure and something with a roof and air conditioning for cold and inclimate weather.

Don't consider this reply a vote one way or another, just more food for thought.

 

[Bob Claffie]

Unless you are prepared to supply your son with a backup vehicle for when/if the LBC goes belly up I would vote NO on any Triumph. My first choice (and I have one) is an early Miata. They are just about bulletproof. Mine has 92000 miles on it and has NEVER been in the shop. Never had a failure I couldn't fix. If your head is firmly fixed on LBC my non binding vote would be for MGB. I've had a couple and enjoyed them immensely. (Also had a Spitfire, good but liked the "B" better.

 

[TexasKnucklehead]

Wow. What a decision. Sounds to me like Dad doesn't win no matter what. I want to agree with everyone, but remember my brother at 16 nagging my father until he let him buy his first car -a TR4. By the time my father agreed, the selling price went from a few thousand down to $500. He loved that car for a few years despite not being able to drive it in the winter, the leaking top, breakdowns, etc. But it made he and I much closer. I learned to drive (and wrench) in that car and it had a bigger effect on me. He has since owned other TRs, we owned a MGB, and I presently own a TR6 and TR3. He had a Miata for a short time. -Anyway, I think that if he really wants it, he has to decide, find it, and pay for it. Then you both have to live with whatever that presents to you both.

Back when I was 16, my father always owned two $1,000 cars. He always thought the chances were better of having 2)$1k cars, than 1)$2k car, because 1 of the 2 might start and get him to work. In your case, 2) $5k cars might get him somewhere -and the TR6 sounds like more fun to me, but I've never owned/driven a Spit.

As an aside, when my father allowed me to purchase my first car (a well used Duster for $700), I drove it home. My dad asked for the keys and when I handed them over he said 'OK, I'll let you know when you can drive it'. He ran a tight ship.

 

[glemon]

I agree with the guy that said buy him a smaller manual modern car and let him learn to drive, deal with traffic, maintain it, etc. Actually a good compromise choice might be an old BMW, late 80s, early 90s, cheap, have some character, will probably need some wrenching and mechanically sympathetic ear to keep going, and they are rear wheel drive, which of course behaves differently than FWD in the rain (even if you don't get snow down there), or even a beater but mechanically sound BMW 2002 if you want a little more vintage experience, you could still find them for somewhere between Spitfire and TR6 prices, but have at least a little more metal around you (and you can stuff more buddies in the car).

My first car was a Sprite, my second car was a Sprite, I lived to tell the story, not from lack of youthful foolhardiness, but I would not want my kid using an LBC as his DD in his formative driving years. Differences between then and now:

1. Sure, people were driving big American tanks back then, maybe two tons, but at least they were not built so high off the ground that the tops of their doors were higher than a Spitfire's windshield. Look at any car or, for even more dramatic effect, truck made in the last ten years next to its old equivalent from 20 or more years ago, they have gotten bigger and taller, my fear is in a wreck some of these vehicles would simply roll over a small LBC like a Spit or Sprite

2. Cel phones and texting, need I say more?

3. I am older and wiser and realize me and mine are not indestructible.

I talked to a guy who bought a new Morgan three wheeler, I asked him if he said he felt safe driving it, he said you just drive it like it is a motorcycle, and assume nobody sees you or will get out of your way, I understand, and that makes sense, I used to drive motorcycles too, and my own father instilled that defensive approach to riding one in me. But there is a learning curve for most people for that type of driving, which brings us back to my suggestions above.

 

[toysrrus]

My opinion as well & your "Poll Vote" recommends the same by a long shot!!

Having 3 Sons & Bought ea. of them (My Mistake) a decent, "DAILY DRIVER"; They all trashed the cars at one point or another. I bought "Several" of them for ea. kid. That was another mistake!!

Mazda Miata sounds like "Your & His" answer if a 2 seater sports car is in his future!!

LOL, Russ

Toyota corolla with a 5 speed. Is what I vote for.

If he can change the oil, and do a timing belt or maybe a thermostat/water pump change he might be ready. If the corolla makes it 10-18 months then talk about a British car.

I was 16 a short 20 years ago, and I wouldn't give me British Convertible.

 

[number6]

Get him the Spitfire. Parts easy, tougher than most think, inexpensive. My first car made me a member of the 500 club. Rover 2000 TC. Every month another 500.00 to keep on the road. Have a spitfire now as daily driver, few issues.

 

[George_H]

Well, My first car was 69 tr6. but that was in 1977. All 3 of my kids had at least one fender bender before learning. I buy old saturns for a first car and it has worked out well. Get him through college,then decide. A nice tr6 would make a great graduation present. Triumphs are work to keep on the road as a daily. from 1977-1980 I had 3. Then i got tied of working on them. I returned to the fold about 5 years ago. For comfort and highway driving, I drive a wedge. I was a hater back then but now I'm a convert. Besides they are affordable.