Spark plug question?

Tinster · Jun 22, 2008

I swear, I am the Energizer bunny, I keep going and going
and going at repairs without driving very much.

I'm in the middle of replacing my car's ignition system.
I go thru spark plugs pretty fast. 8 to 10 sets in 1700 miles
of engine use.

I got almost 1000 miles from one set of plugs and they were
a nice toasty brown color when I pitched them.

I replaced the ENTIRE fuel delivery system from pulling the
fuel tank to pulling the carbs and everything new in between.

I've now got maybe ten minutes of garage idle time and almost
1/4 mile of drive distance on my new plugs gapped at .028

I pulled 2 plugs today and they were deeply blackened. I did
NOT touch the needles when I had the carbs off. NOTHING changed
except of a functional 3 psi fuel pump and no fuel filter.

A 1/4 mile seems like a poor distance for spark plugs.
How can I determine the correct mixture? I am running 2-stroke
oil mixed with my high test gasoline to prevent gas tank rusting here in the tropics.

Also, can spark plugs be cleaned or must they ALWAYS be trashed?

thanks, all help appreciated!!

d

PeterK · Jun 22, 2008

I clean my plugs with spray brake cleaner; then blast them dry with air. No brushing. Nothing wrong with black plugs as long as they still fire. They're just not optimal. Most plugs last ... a long time ... years.

I would guess that the 2-stroke oil is killing you. It's like driving a car that needs a ring job, meaning oil is fouling the ignition (sparking) process. They used to sell special plugs that would fire, even in oil (I'm NOT recommending them to you) for worn out oil burning cars (again, yours is NOT one of these.)

As far as your tank, the rust process requires oxygen. That's how POR-15 works by SEALing out oxygen from the metal to prevent rust.

Oil in your gas isn't buying you anything Dale (except maybe keeping the insect population down from the smoking.) Keep the tank full will prevent rust too and work a whole lot better than oil.

angelfj1 · Jun 22, 2008

Tinster said:
I swear, I am the Energizer bunny, I keep going and going
and going at repairs without driving very much.

I'm in the middle of replacing my car's ignition system.
I go thru spark plugs pretty fast. 8 to 10 sets in 1700 miles
of engine use.

I got almost 1000 miles from one set of plugs and they were
a nice toasty brown color when I pitched them.

I replaced the ENTIRE fuel delivery system from pulling the
fuel tank to pulling the carbs and everything new in between.

I've now got maybe ten minutes of garage idle time and almost
1/4 mile of drive distance on my new plugs gapped at .028

I pulled 2 plugs today and they were deeply blackened. I did
NOT touch the needles when I had the carbs off. NOTHING changed
except of a functional 3 psi fuel pump and no fuel filter.

A 1/4 mile seems like a poor distance for spark plugs.
How can I determine the correct mixture? I am running 2-stroke
oil mixed with my high test gasoline to prevent gas tank rusting here in the tropics.

Also, can spark plugs be cleaned or must they ALWAYS be trashed?

thanks, all help appreciated!!

d

Dale: I don't know what your doing, but spark plugs should last many thousands of miles. If your running rich and see carbon on your plugs, you don't need to toss them. You can clean them and they will be fine.

Why are you replacing the ignition system? I realize you have suspected a bad coil, but no reason to replace everything. They must love you at Pep Boys

PAUL161 · Jun 22, 2008

I just put a set of Iridium plugs in my truck. Supposed to last at least 100,000 miles! So they say. Might be my imagination, but the truck seems to have a little more git up and go in the lower RPM range with less throttle pressure. We'll see! If they work out, I'll get a set for the "B".

Brosky · Jun 22, 2008

Paul,

My TR6 never liked the Iridium plugs at all. The Platinum were fine, but not the Iridium.

Dale,

2 cycle oil does not belong in your tank, no matter where you live. And plugs are not intended to be replaced at those low mileage intervals.

If the two plugs are rich or blackened, there must be a reason. It could be a bad wire, the tower in the cap, etc., but....before you go changing anything else, these plugs will never look like the colors in the "ideal" picture chart if you don't ever get the engine off choke and run it on the road. Starting the car daily and never driving it fouls plugs faster than anything. Especially with 2 cycle oil mixed with the fuel.

Geo Hahn · Jun 22, 2008

Tinster said:
...1/4 mile of drive distance on my new plugs gapped at .028

I pulled 2 plugs today and they were deeply blackened.

I would expect if I put in new plugs, started the engine, drove 1/4 mile and then pulled the plugs they would be black.

As for:

Tinster said:
...I got almost 1000 miles from one set of plugs and they were a nice toasty brown color when I pitched them.

Why would you pitch them?

humanoid · Jun 22, 2008

If you're changing your plugs every 1K miles, isn't there something seriously wrong with your engine then? That's definitely not normal and it does sound like you're running rich.

Tinster · Jun 22, 2008

Brosky said:
...before you go changing anything else, these plugs will never look like the colors in the "ideal" picture chart if you don't ever get the engine off choke and run it on the road. Starting the car daily and never driving it fouls plugs faster than anything. Especially with 2 cycle oil mixed with the fuel.

Ouch!!

That is exactly what I do.

When the car is not streetable (like now) I start the engine
every morning, let it warm up, idle for 10 minutes parked and
then shut it off. Here in the tropics, I need the choke for
maybe 1 minute, no more.

Before the tank of poisoned gasoline, my plugs were a nice tan color.
That was back when I was able to drive the car in the street every day.

I HAVE just replaced all the wires on the driver's engine side
of the car. If I replace the plug wires also, they will be set No. 4

My Jeeps all have original engine wires, coils, ignition, etc.
Maybe Jeeps are just more rugged?

Thanks for the input. Looks like I need to figure a way to get that custom
fuel tank with Racor filter fabricated

d

tdskip · Jun 22, 2008

Dale - can't you effect the same sort of anti-rust protection by simply keeping the tank full as often as possible?

I can't imagine that the 2-stroke oil is helping your engine or fuel system.

LastDeadLast · Jun 22, 2008

Dale,

First of all get rid of the two cycle oil, you own a car not a weed-eater.

Next, eliminate all fuel filters except the one that's supposed to be there; the factory pump doesn't have that much umph to begin with so any extra strain my not be that good.

Before I go any further verify that:
1. Your valves are properly adjusted
2. Points are adjusted to factory specs
3. Timing is set at factory specs
4. Dizzy rotor and cap at least look in good shape

If you don't know how to do any of the above, you need to learn before you do anything else.

Now get a fresh set of plugs to start with.. gap them as per OEM specifications.

After all this, we now have a baseline.

Now get in your car and drive it for a good few minutes at a nice pace. When you come back to your house turn off the ignition while still rolling and drift to a stop. Take out each plug and inspect. If it's not nice and tan, then you've got something wrong; either too rich or too lean. Do you know how to adjust your carbs? You need a special tool that will set you back about $10.00, but it's well worth it. The Bentley manual tells you how to do this. If that doesn't work THEN you start looking at other things like float level, and fuel jets. After you've explored all that, then start on the ignition. If you've replaced your plug wires 4 times, then you've wasted your money. Make sure that the dizzy shaft doesn't have any excess wobble in it. It might not be a bad idea to install a fuel pressure gauge somewhere too.

FYI, spark plugs should last a long, long time and if they're fouling out as soon as you say, then you've got something seriously wrong with your engine.

Only after doing all the above would I even consider ripping out my ignition system.

Honestly, have you considered just getting a Miata and selling the TR6? It seems that you love it when it runs, but you're the first to call it a piece of crap when you have problems with it.. some of which arguably might be your own fault. Don't get me wrong, I do admire your determination and what you've done with the car since you've bought it... but it's an old car and something will always probably be broken or out of adjustment and it doesn't seem that you've come to terms with that. You haven't done anything to your ride that half the people on this board haven't already done, so I just don't get the continued references to the previous owner. All the stuff that you're dealing with now, you've already messed with, so to me ole Pedro doesn't apply anymore.

There's a lot of intelligent people on this board that willingly given their time and sometimes extra parts to help out, however many times I've seen you out and out ignore good information that could help you bring your troubles to a shorter and more long term end.

Again, I'm the first to stand in line to admire what you've accomplished, but maybe it's time to re-evaluate what you expect from your TR6 and take appropriate measures.

Tinster · Jun 23, 2008

LastDeadLast said:
Dale,

First of all get rid of the two cycle oil, will do but not today 

Next, eliminate all fuel filters except the one that's supposed to be there;
No filter now during diagnostic phase- straight fuel lines. 

Before I go any further verify that:
1. Your valves are properly adjusted adjusted 400 miles ago 
2. Points are adjusted to factory specs 72 hours ago 
3. Timing is set at factory specs 12* BTDC veriified 24 hours ago 
4. Dizzy rotor and cap at least look in good shape Both brand new 

Note: Dizzy rebuilt by Advanced Distributors 

If you don't know how to do any of the above: yes, I am able 
Now get a fresh set of plugs to start with.. gap them as per OEM specifications. Done, gapped to .028 

Note: also installed new condensor and new engine bay wires for all the ignition and starter.
My car starts almost instantly on the first turn of the key, nice smooth idle at 800 rpm
and shuts down instantly when key turned off.

we now have a baseline. I hope so. 

Note: My carbs are Jeff Palya rebuilt w/ 1700 miles in them 

Do you know how to adjust your carbs? You need a special tool that will set you back about $10.00, but it's well worth it. yes, yes to tool, yes, Banjo showed my how The Bentley manual tells you how to do this. If that doesn't work THEN you start looking at other things like float level, checked and good and fuel jets. jets checked and good 

Make sure that the dizzy shaft doesn't have any excess wobble in it. It might not be a bad idea to install a fuel pressure gauge somewhere too.

FYI, spark plugs should last a long, long time and if they're fouling out as soon as you say, then you've got something seriously wrong with your engine.

Only after doing all the above would I even consider ripping out my ignition system.

Honestly, have you considered just getting a Miata No, retired with no income, all my cash was sunk into the TR6" and selling the TR6? No market here 

but it's an old car and something will always probably be broken or out of adjustment and it doesn't seem that you've come to terms with that. I am beginning to see this actually. The Triumph hobby appears to be more about fixing and repairing broken stuff in the garage; mixed in with a few miles of actual driving between breakdowns. There's a lot of intelligent people on this board that willingly given their time and sometimes extra parts to help out, however many times I've seen you out and out ignore good information that could help you bring your troubles to a shorter and more long term end. Drawing a blank here, sorry 

Again, I'm the first to stand in line to admire what you've accomplished, but maybe it's time to re-evaluate what you expect from your TR6 and take appropriate measures.

I am doing exactly that now. The Mrs says the check book is closed to
any more large $$$ for the TR6.

As always, thanks for the help and advice

Edit: Somewhere I remember Doc recommending NGK brand plugs.
So I pulled the new set of Bosch Platinums because I had a set of
spares- NGKR BPR6ES . I gapped them to .030, installed them and the car
started instantly. I shut it off right away because it is raining today.
Bear in mind, this car has successfully driven only 1/4 mile after the
most recent series of breakdowns.

dale

zblu · Jun 23, 2008

Try this link for plug info

https://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

achtungeveryone · Jun 23, 2008

tinster,
I should double check the book but I believe the gap is .025 not .028. Unless you are running a really hot ignition I think you are better off sticking to the stock gap. You want to be sure the plug fires. Personally, I don't think Lucas sport coils or Flame throwers reliably boost spark level (thereby allowing increased gap). Okay, maybe somewhat...but since you have fouled plugs you might bring the gap in just a bit...just more of that baseline idea.

DrEntropy · Jun 23, 2008

He had Bosch Plats in there, in my experience they foul in EVERY British car ever produced. NGK's or Champions will be much better. The 0.030" gap may be a bit wide, but 0.028" wouldn't be bad. The car was sat at idle too much, not take out and exercised. The plugs will load up kinda quick that way. [comment deleted by site owner]

Tinster · Jun 23, 2008

DrEntropy said:
The car was sat at idle too much, not take out and exercised. The plugs will load up kinda quick that way. [comment deleted by site owner].

I think I understand that concept Doc.

Tres Gatos has one of them new, super high tech, Optimax
4stroke/2stroke engines with 115 psi fuel delivery.

We troll ay nearly idle speed for hours on end. The plugs load up
and every once in a while we take her to high rpm and "burn the plugs"

Yer correct, my car has several hours "run time" in the garage but
almost no actual drive mileage in the street. I guess the plugs WOULD
turn black pretty fast.

thanks fer reminding of my basic boat engine 101 also
applies to autos.

I'll close the gap on the plugs a tad and maybe
bring the timing down to 10* BTDC from the 12* current. 

d :thumbsup:

angelfj1 · Jun 23, 2008

[comment deleted by site owner]

Basil · Jun 23, 2008

I just deleted every part of this thread that made reference to "Italian Tune Up" and what it may or may not mean. Do I think an actual slight or insult was intended? No, personally I don't. Nonetheless at least one member found it offensive so it is gone and don't bring it back.

I'm going to be honest with all of you here. I am not offended when someone makes a joke about us drunken Irish. I am Irish, but I have a sense of humor about it (and I don't even drink) because I know that usually such comments are not intended to be hurtful or malicious.

In my humble opinion there is a difference between an intentionally mean comment and one meant in jest - sometimes I fear our society has become so hyper-sensitive that we sometimes look for things to be offended by.

Nevertheless, rules is rules, so, lets all please refrain from the ethnic comments, however well-intentioned or good natured they are...some people don't always take such comments the way they are intended.

Thank you,

Basil

DNK · Jun 23, 2008

Boss, If I'm overstepping delete this..

Gees, That has more to do with the maiden country of the car then the driver. It's how Italian cars are done. Must be a younger person

vivdownunder · Jun 23, 2008

Gee Tinster, what a drama.....you've definately run over more than the one odd Puerto Rican black cat on a dark night.

Hang in with the NGK's.

Being stuck with more British cars than good sense, I've carted home truck loads of spark plugs since the advent of unleaded. All this trial and error boiled down to NGK's lasting the longest, and at one grade hotter than for leaded, which a petro-engineer friend put down to the unleaded being formulated to burn in a hotter combustion chamber.

Or swap for a Mustang which will just keep on keeping on, with a service but once per decade.

There's better stuff to put in the tank to absorb moisture than two stroke. Just a dash of metho (for the alcohol) will do the trick, and it'll burn away perfecly.

Black plugs allow H/T current to escape down the carbon, and even when you clean them with a soft brush, they still want to maintain the bad habit and track, which I don't understand, but it happens.

Hang in...you'll win out, and it'll be heaps of fun.

Viv.

TR3driver · Jun 24, 2008

Personally, I've been quite happy with the Bosch Platinum plugs. Never actually wore out a set, but I do change em every 15-20000 miles, "just in case".

I believe it's a bad idea to use a wire brush to clean plugs; as the plug ceramic will trap and hold conductive steel particles from the wires. But even having a cylinder that first fouls and then starts running can cause a 'glazed' plug ... the deposits melt in the heat and form a conductive film on the ceramic.

One trick I've read about is to screw two plugs into a short length of heater hose, with some silicon carbide blast media (likely Black Beauty would work just as well) inside the hose; and then shake them vigorously. Kind of a poor man's spot media blaster !

Or you could do as I did, and get a MSD 6 box (which will fire ANYTHING). I don't like the Crane XR3000 as well (the CDI version of the optical trigger system), but it likewise seems to have no trouble firing fouled plugs.

Spark plug question?

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