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So, when is a Triumph not a Triumph anymore?

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[ QUOTE ]
{Ken Richardson's} take on originality was that concours was 'okay', but if your not trying to improve the car over time what's the point. He was much more in favor of seeing a well thought out modification. Of course he was the competition manager. If only I had gotten his autograph.

[/ QUOTE ]I, too, had the pleasure of meeting Ken on several occasions at VTR Conventions. I also once had the greatest possible honor of having Triumph "Works" driver Mike Rothschild drive my autocross Spitfire in 1989, but that's a story for another time. Both were true gentlemen in every way, including humility and total lack of pretense.

Ken greatly enjoyed American Triumph meets such as the VTR Conventions, but probably he most enjoyed seeing the cars used as they were intended: running around on road rallyes and being thrashed in autocrosses.

Some of you may know that he contributed a permanent, yearly award to VTR, a challenge for the sidescreen TRs where winning is based to some degree on show judging score but is also heavily dependent upon performance in the (at least one is required @ VTR meets) moving events. Most all the winners over the years are show-worthy cars to be sure, but said cars are also capably and vigorously driven by their owners.

By the way, the "permanent" trophy is the Durand Cup, THE Prize awarded to the TRS Le Mans cars for their Team finish in the 1961 24-hour race.

I realize this is a bit off-topic, but I thought it was worth sharing.
 
Here's what I'm doing with the TR8:

Rebuild of the engine with .020 pistons
Edelbrock/Holley 4-barrel
Street cam
Change from 8.13: to 10:1 compression
Headers and complete exhaust system
New paint - not factory color
Conversion from piston to rotary A/C compressor
AM/FM/CD player
New interior, but staying with the plaid
14" Panasports (came with 13" alloys, but tire selection is limited, and I'll upgrade the brakes later, which will require the larger wheels for clearance)

Definitely a resto-mod. It may not be original, but it will still be a TR8. And it will provide plenty of safe, comfortable performance. I'm saving all the original pieces, should I or anyone else want to take it back to its original state.
 
My TR6 is a resto-mod. Interesting things resto-mods. In my case, it seems to be perpetual. I have always considered my mods to be in the spirit of the Triumph Sports Owners Association. Improving the performance and driveability of the marque.

My TR8 is starting down the road of resto-mod as well. No reservations on my part either.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
I'd rather see a TR with a Chebby 350 on the road than an original TR rusting away in some backyard.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather see a TR with a Chebby 350 on the road than an original TR rusting away in some backyard.

[/ QUOTE ]
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I couldn't agree more. That's why I didn't have any reservations about doing the V8 conversion. Mine was destined for parting out. For likely purposes, not restorable.

To the first question I think I really am not driving a "TR6". It looks like a TR6 on the exterior and interior. In operation, it has NONE of the original personality and very little of it's characteristics. Sitting in it running you would know. It has a roar - not a purr. It will find top speed in 15 seconds rather than 5 minutes(joke). Drive it slow, it still feels fast. The engine is very present.

I think some performance enhancements keep it a TR. There is a lot of gray between keeping things stock and making that first "replacement". I also think replacing systems tends to loose the intent of the original TR experience.

I tend to equate this to my neighbor who has a jeep CJ7. The ONLY thing stock is the frame and fenders - not the 300Hp V8 and a $10K in gears and suspension. NOT a jeep.

Good discussion!
Jeff3113
 
Mods on a car can change the heritage as NASCAR did with stock car racing. Now the cars are not Ford or Chevy etc. they are "the #9 car" or the "#_ car". Personally, I think the new rear axel shaft conversion does not nullify the right to call the car a Triumph. Multi-carbs, or different carbs/ header doesn’t seem to bother the ability to call the car a Triumph. Internal mods to the motor seem ok. I don't think the transmission conversion would be a disqualifier. Yet "looks" or body mods (I don't mean fender flairs here) seems to start the question about "is it a real Triumph". I am glad the car shows have thought through alterations of the car so classes can accommodate most any mod situation. I like all of the classes and appreciate the genius or total like of genius when I see these different cars. Now the big question, if I get an overhead cam, aluminum hemi head for my other wise stock TR6, will it be a Triumph? It will to me.
 
For what it's worth, I have a '73 Stag. Publisher's Clearinghouse has not sent me my check yet so rebuilding a Stag motor was out of the question. The end result is a Stag with a Ford 289, coupled to a Ford SROD 4 speed. It is a nice driving car, and the SROD gives me overdrive. Visually a Triumph without the problems inherant with the Stag engine. There are those that will argue that the Stag motor can be mede reliable. This is true and I have seen it done, but I can do five (or more) 289s for what is costs to rebuild a Stag V8. It will be fun to have something so totally different from my MM Traveller.
 
The DMV in Kansas still considers my TR6 a Triumph even with the BMW M3 Driveline. No body mods so it still looks like a Triumph and everyone that sees it thinks it's a Triumph.

Bottom Line: It still causes me enormous aggravation, costs me a plenty of jack to her keep happy but delivers me incredible satisfaction and joy--Sounds Like a Triumph To Me (also kind of sounds like my Wife).
 
Sorry to step in so late with a comment from one of the early replies, but....
"I think the most boring thing in the world would be to go to a gathering of Triumphs and see them all in perfect "left the factory" condition."
There is a place for original cars. If everyone modifies their car there will be no benchmark for originality. The historical value and record will be lost. Opening the doors to the revisionists. With the wildfire like spread of information in the internet, a simple mistake like the tire size stated in the Haggerty article could become gospel.
I'll admit the likelyhood that there will be no original Triumphs is pretty slim. However there is a very strong possibility that the majority of LBC owners will never see one as they will be in private collections or located too far away for general access.
I would like to see a gaggle of "original" TR6's to compare one owners version of original to another.
I'm faced with a dilemma. I bought an original TR6 with 14,000 miles on the clock. Other than the dash and the wheels and tires (almost forgot the Pertronix) it is pretty much dead stock original. Like most of you I think about what I want to do to improve the car. On the other hand I feel a certain amount of responsiblity to keep it as close to original as possible.
Our local club held their annual show a couple of weekends back. One of the attendees was a man who worked for Triumph when our cars were being built. Although I posted a page with a list of items that I know are not original, he was the only person to notice the dash. He quietly mentioned it to me during our conversation. He also added to my dilemma by stating that the car was in amazing condition, adding that this comment was coming from the founder of the Triumph Club in Belgium and a former employee of Triumph who was there when these were built.
As for when a Triumph is no longer a Triumph? I say it's when one of two things have happened. Either the car has returned to its elemental state through neglect, accidental destruction or an act of God. Or (coughing up blood) it has been crunched and recycled somewhere in Asia into a Kia, Toyota or some other distant cousin, several times removed, of the glorious marques we enjoy so much.
 
I understand your delema Bob, mine has a few more miles 46k but is pretty much original also. I have given it a lot of thought. I even found the matching numbers on the dash and glove box door when I refinished them.

I too like to see original cars, just not sure I want mine to be one of them. I have actually thought of buying a second one that is modified and keep mine original as possible.

Actually that inner struggle is what prompted the original question here.

BTW you are not late at all. And like I said earlier, this has been a very interesting thread of comments. I have been enjoying the different points of view.
 
My personal feeling is this: if it's one of a kind (or nearly so), don't mess with it. If it's so painfully original and low mileage, don't mess with it. If it's relatively unmolested but might need some work either to restore or to modify, don't do anything irreversible (i.e., major cutting, welding, etc.) If it's an incomplete basket case, wreck or other salvage car (and it doesn't meet the 'one of a kind' criteria), have fun! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif

I've a basketcase that's getting 90% restored, with the 10% being improvements to make the purists swoon.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif

But I think I'll like it better.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif
 
My TR6 is still a Triumph to me. When my TR6 drops down into a valley on a hot night and you feel the cold air its still my old Triumph. The feel of the thin steering wheel is still there and so is the feel of a narrow car on a wide road. I do miss the smell of the old Triumph and the sweet exhaust note, but I love the whisle of the turbo and the smell of hi-octane race gas.
 
I like shag carpet. It's so...70's. I always wanted to paint one of my TR6's that purple color they came out with. That, too, is 70's.


Bill
 
ok,
the body etc should be mostly stock. the engine should be the same it came with(modified is fine). triumph to triumph engine swaps is acceptable. stock appearing is ok. wings do not belong. front spoilers are ok and slight fender flares. minilite wheels ok.
chev or ford engines, no! original character gone.
rob
 
Hmmmmn, well, I picked up a complete basket case '67 Spitfire because I really like Micholetti's design. It came to me with no motor, floor pans, seats, and various other bits missing or not intact. I really couldn't imagine going through all the time, effort and expense to restore this thing to have an 1147 and non o/d 4 speed. Maybe that's just me. While I am still in the process of getting together all the parts I will need to make this a running car again I have settled upon using a quad 4 mated to a t5 for a powertrain and have not decided on a rear end yet but am leaning toward a 280zx turbo or 300zx IRS unit. Will it still be a Triumph? Internally, no. Externally, no one will be able to tell the difference. One among many reasons I settled on the quad is that the 16v dohc modular design is the direction Triumph was going when it went down. I guess I really am not concerned with the things that aren't immediately visible, but I don't want to change anything external. Flame me all you want, but it is one more Triumph that did not go to the crusher and will be back on the road someday.

John
-Saving a bit of history on my own terms. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/patriot.gif
 
you make a valid point. while your spit might not be a triumph anymore in most ways, you still saved what was left from distruction.

although v8's still don't make sense to me even in a situation like this.
 
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