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Smoke question

desmo900rider

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I just picked up a new to me 79 Spitfire tonight and one of the issues that I know is has is apparently a leaky rocker cover gasket...there is oil coming out of the rear side of where the rocker cover meets the gasket, and it drips oil down onto the header...around town at low RPM's and low speed, say under 45-50 mph, I don't notice much except a faint smell, however when I was buzzing home on the freeway, at say 4500ish RPM and about 70 MPH, after a short bit I noticed some white smoke coming from the back of the car, and since I was driving, I couldn't tell if it was coming from the exhaust or not...oil pressure hovers at about 25ish at idle, and under power holds a pretty constant 40...as soon as I got off the freeway, I could no longer see the smoke...my thought is this, if it was a problem with the valves, I would see the smoke even at lower speeds/RPM's, so maybe under higher RPMs/speeds, there is higher oil pressure resulting in more oil coming from the leaky gasket, therefore more oil dripping onto the header making more noticable white smoke...

Thoughts?
 
Black smoke = gas

Blue smoke = oil

White smoke = water

Yellow smoke = LZ
 
You have your answer in the previous post. I would guess that you have a leaky head gasket. You may also have a leaky valve cover gasket. I would get that all fixed before you do much tooling about. The water leak is very serious and can do harm to your engine very quickly. Personal experience talking here :-(
Good luck, Tinkerman
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

[ QUOTE ]
...oil pressure hovers at about 25ish at idle, and under power holds a pretty constant 40...

[/ QUOTE ]Smoke question aside, those oil pressure numbers seem a bit low to me. What grade of oil are you using?
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

Well, after driving it to work this AM, I paid close attention to the oil pressure, when I first started it up and backed out of the drive, it seemed to be pegged at 100, as I was driving it seemed to drop a bit, maybe 80-90, and under acceleration it rose, and under lower RPMs dropped a bit...at idle seemed to be about 40-50...

What should the oil pressure #s look like? And what should the pressure do while driving?

Sorry for the lame questions, I am very new to all this...
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

OK, this set of numbers looks a lot better -- much more "in range" of normal figures, especially the "40-50" at idle. On a really hot day and/or after a very hard drive, those idle numbers might be significantly lower. Generally, normal cruising should see oil pressure in the 45-65+ range (higher is better, of course).

Back to the original problem, though. I'd correct the valve cover gasket leaking and then keep an eye on oil and coolant levels and conditions...this to make sure you don't have any head gasket problems that might be causing one to mix with the other.

Overall, though, it sounds as if you're pretty much ok.
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

I also noticed that I have some oil coming out of a small pinhole in the top of the oil fill cap that is on top of the valve cover, the valve cover may be aftermarket, it has a billet look, and the cap is screw on and polished, almost looks like a gas cap, and it has a small hole in the center of it, thats where a bit of oil is blowing out of...some kind of old British pressure release perhaps? Does that sound normal?

BTW I have a new valve cover gasket on the way, seems like a simple job...
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

Hi,

Seeing oil pushing out of a few places like that, you might want to check the PCV or "Positive Crankcase Ventilation" valve. If it's not doing its job, pressure can build up and force oil out through gaskets and vents. The same pressure can push some oil into the cylinders, past rings or valve guides, where it burns, usually producing bluish smoke out the tail pipe. This is more likely the hotter the engine is and the thinner the oil, such as at highway speeds.

Being your car is a '79, it should have a number of emission control and a closed breathing circuit. Is anything missing, perhaps removed by a previous owner? This might be a source of problems.

It could be that the aftermarket valve cover cap is actually intended for an earlier, non-emission-controlled car and shouldn't have a hole in it, and might always leak a little. I don't know about this, though. You'd have to compare with a "correct" oil filler cap and see if that's vented too (one of the vendors might be able to tell you).

All this may be related to the "smoke" you saw. However, oil getting into the cylinders would normally make bluish smoke, not white. It would be helpful if you could get someone to follow you on the freeway and watch the tail pipe, try to see if that's actually where the smoke is coming from, or if it's coming out from elsewhere under the car and confirm the color carefully. It could be the oil on the header or as simple as something was painted recently or there are some vapors "cooking off" new-ish parts.

However, with white "smoke" I'd primarily be concerned about a coolant leak, either internal or external, and would keep an eye on the level in the radiator (or expansion tank if there's one on the car). This might indicate a head gasket leak, allowing coolant into a cylinder, in which case the white smoke would come out the exhaust pipe. Usually when the head gasket is leaking, there is a puff of white smoke out the tail pipe when the car is first started, after it's sat overnight. It could also be coolant leaking from a hose or even a pinhole in the radiator leaking steam or spraying some liquid onto a hot header or hot exhaust system, where it turns to steam. A close watch of the coolant level will tell you if there is a problem.

You mentioned noticing some odor, too. That might give a clue, depending on whether it smells like oil, fuel or anti-freeze.

Yes, the second set of oil pressure numbers sounds pretty good. Watch what it does fully warmed up on the freeway, too. Also, "pegged at 100" at cold start might actually be too high and indicate a pressure release isn't working. I am not all that familiar with Spits, but most other TRs have a release/bypass in the oil system that prevents more than about 75-80 psi when the oil is cold. Here's another possibile reason you are seeing leaks and smoke. But, it could also be unrelated and might be as simple as the oil pressure gauge not being very accurate and giving an incorrect reading.

I don't think you mentioned what type oil you are using? 20w50?

Keep us posted what you find.

p.s. I'm curious about yellow smoke, too! LZ? Landing Zone?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

Hello all,

"White smoke = water", yes, normally, but a brake fluid leak into the vacuum side of the brake servo also gives white smoke.

Also I do not believe that high oil pressure is better, 45 PSI hot is all that is needed, higher oil pressures just waste power and tend to aggravate leaks.

Alec
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

Ah, Alan, I definitely think you're onto something!
"desmo900rider": does this valve cover have any sort of outlet that goes to charcoal cannisters or ultimately to the manifold or carb intake, or even a hose pointing to the ground? or is that "pinhole" IT for venting? This could be a moderately serious (yet fairly easily solved) problem.

Meanwhile, "piman," I didn't mean to imply that infinitely higher oil pressure readings are always better. But my experience with most Triumph motors has led me to believe that, for a car at normal running temperatures, oil pressure figures that are in the lower range indicate either a lighter than normal oil viscosity or big-end bearings starting to show some significant wear.
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

Well, thanks so much for all the replies so far guys, I know I found a good forum!

I just took the car out again at lunch, and there is no smoke what so ever at startup or while driving, at least no that I can see...so I am thinking that the smoke that I saw is (hopefully) not due to a head gasket and or coolent problem, but rather oil from the valve cover gasket...

As far as oil pressure is concerened, when the car is warm and sitting at idle, it hovers nicely at about 40, and rises a bit on acceleration and under higher RPMs, I did'nt really see it get about 60 when I was driving on the surface roads around here...

I have the gasket for the valve cover coming in next week, so i will take a closer look then when I replace it, but the small hole in the top of the oil fill cap is open and does not lead to anything...I am curious about this PCV valve though...is there a way to check if it is functioning properly, and if it needs to be replaced, how tough of a job is it?

Thanks again for all your help so far!

Mike
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

First, you need to change the valve cover gasket. Not sure there should be a pin hole in the oil filler. An earlier cap will have a lot of big holes on the underside. You probably need to change the oil and make sure you have the correct amount of a good oil. Keep your eye on the coolant level to see if its losing any. If its leaking coolant badly, the exhaust will be white, hang in the air a while and smell sickly sweet. ALso, open the oil filler after shutting off the motor once its good and hot. See if you have whiteish smoke swirling around inside the valve cover that would indicate a lot of blowby. Lastly, go ahead and replace the spring in the oil pressure release valve. Its easy to replace.
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

[ QUOTE ]

I'm curious about yellow smoke, too! LZ? Landing Zone?


[/ QUOTE ]
Incoming choppers >>>>>>> Take detour.

Sorry for the confusion /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

You might be lucky with the white smoke stopping.
My guess is you may have blown the gunk out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

What type/weight of oil should be in the car? I believe that is has Mobil one in it now but I am not sure, also not sure of the weight, but I plan on doing a change next week when I do the gasket...
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

Mike,
Can you post a couple of pictures of the engine? It would help the Spitfire experts to see what you have and don't have. From there they can help with the diagnosis.
By the way, leaks, squeaks and rattles are part of the initiation into the LBC fraternity. Don't get discouraged. There is very little that you can't fix yourself with a little help from the forum.
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

Most people here seem to use Castrol 20-50.

I use Amsoil 20-50 (synthetic)
Synthetics have a tendency to leak out.
 
Stop driven park-it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nonod.gif.The area your talking about(the rear section of the valve cover) is typical of a Spitfire,its not unusual for it to leak their.Remove the rocker cover get a better quality copper gasket(felpro-Mr.Gasket)& reinstall.The white smoke should tell you theirs water in the oil.,if goes on you may blow a head gasket.,And whats the temp guage been sayin?Good Luck /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

[ QUOTE ]
... has Mobil one in it now, but I am not sure...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh, synthetic oil. That might explain the leaks. The stuff does tend to sneak by seals and gaskets.

In these older style motors, I like to use 20w50 Valvoline *non-sythetic* and change it every 3000 mi or 3 months. In really cold weather (not likely here in Calif.) I might switch to 10w40 or a 50/50 blend of 20w50 and 10w40, depending upon how many miles the engine has on it.

A new valve cover gasket should help. Still, keep an eye on the coolant level and follow up on if the car has or should have a PCV valve (Most are easily replaced, or can be cleaned with "carb cleaner" spray... best test is to blow through from both sides. It should allow air to pass through one way, but not the other.)

If it were me, I'd also be checkin' on what emission stuff should be installed and if the vented oil filler cap is correct with it. I hate all that emissions stuff as much as anyone, especially the 1st generation stuff when it was initially mandated in the 70s. But, just removing it can cause problems.

The Moss website might be useful, with its illustrations online. Or, get hold of Victoria British or Moss catalogs, great reference with all the exploded view drawings. I don't know if The Roadster Factory still has it, but they too used to have a really well illustrated Spit/GT6 catalog. Of course, the factory service manual and factory spare parts catalogs are highly recommended, but will cost a bit and the VB/Moss/TRF catalogs are free for the asking.

(Note: Moss and VB do not use the original Triumph part numbers, they each have their own numbering systems. But TRF, Rimmer Bros. in England and a few other suppliers do.)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
Re: Smoke question...and low[?] oil pressure

I found something in my Repair manual called a "check valve", and the book says to test it by blowing through it like you described...I assume this is what you are talking about as I have not found a referance to a PCV valve in the book...

Also, I checked my rad expansion tank and it is empty, and th owners manual says that it should be about 1/2 full...maybe I should flush and refill the rad and refil the expansion as well? I figured when I drop the oil I should be able to tell if there is water in it...
 
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