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Small Wonders ;-]

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The Turbo IS the replacement. Which is why turbocharged cars are restricted in displacement to non turbocharged cars in EVERY form of racing world wide. Which is also why forced induction vs normal aspiration are like apples and oranges.

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Which is another way of saying "displacement is a replacement for turbocharging." If they allowed turbocharging on larger diplacement engines, the racers would run turbochargers on larger displacement engines. And then we'd be right back where we started from - there is no replacement for displacement.

Comparing an engine used for racing to an engine used on the street is really comparing apples to oranges. What's good for the track isn't what's good for the street. Engines identical to the Ford 302 shown above were dyno tested by both Car Craft and Hot Rod magazines, and both got identical numbers: 375hp, and over 300lbft torque from off idle to redline (6,000 rpm), with a peak of around 350. I don't believe you'll get that kind of torgue curve out of a streetable 2.3L turbocharged 4 cylinder. In fact, I don't believe you'll get that kind of torque curve out of any 23.L turbo engine. On the race car, you can gear up to run at 10,000 rpm, but getting out of the pits can be very sluggish until you get the rpm up. That wouldn't be a lot of fun on the street.

With some reasonable modifications, I could get well over 400hp out of that 302, but I wouldn't want to drive it on a regular basis. It would become a real pita for use as a street driver. I have driven an MGB with that same engine, and it is not only EXTREMELY fast, but also very docile. Your grandmother could drive it.

Comparing forced induction to normal asperation is NOT the same as comparing forced induction to larger displacement. Forced induction and displacement are two totally different things. Whatever displacement engine you have, you can get more out of it with turbocharging; Whatever power you get out of a turbocharged engine, you can get more out of it by increasing the displacement.

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You Guys Know a Nth of Danmas--- He is my Father & I Love Him above Cars, Engines, Electrical Demons, Doctor Seuss, & Grease!!!

Just like all Professors... Don't Cross the Road with Them /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheers!
M

PS: Did I mention Falling Out of Trees?
 
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Forced induction and displacement are two totally different things. Whatever displacement engine you have, you can get more out of it with turbocharging; Whatever power you get out of a turbocharged engine, you can get more out of it by increasing the displacement.

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You Guys Know a Nth of Danmas--- He is my Father & I Love Him above Cars, Engines, Electrical Demons, Doctor Seuss, & Grease!!!

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Jees... Talk about getting father and son double teamed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

My point was that in response to the original post about using a turbo charger on a small engine instead of a larger engine is two different approachs to roughly the same end and that the reference to race rules is an example of that. Classes that are limited by displacement in turn limit the size of turbo in relation to the displacement of the engine it is going on to in order to more or less equalize the two different approachs. Thus, the turbo is the replacement for displacement.

This argument has gone on for years between Import Tuners/Enthusiasts and Domestic V8 Tuners/enthusiasts. While my preference still tends to side with the V8's (love the sound and the ease of everything related to it) the Import Tuners have really made some huge advances in Turbo technology and its applications. Anymore, with modern turbo technology, torque numbers can pretty much equal horsepower figures and the torque curves can flatten out at maximum torque below 3,000 rpm (granted its not just off idle) and hold it there past 6,000 rpm or more. As an example, the new Pontiac Solstice GXP/Saturn Sky Redline has 260hp/260lbft out of a direct injected 2.0 liter four cylinder engine and it all happens below 6K RPM. With a 100,000 mile warranty. The Honda S2000 on the other hand puts out close to that power from a naturally aspirated 2.0 liter but doesn't wake up until over 6K rpm and doesn't make near the torque which did take a displacement bump recently to 2.2 Liters (if memory serves) in order to help with the torque and driveability, though still not equal.

I've seen Mitsubishi 2.0 DOHC I4 engines that put out 400hp/400lbft and still be totally docile when not being caned. The one that comes to mine locally was in a '91 Mitsubishi AWD Eclipse. The car ran an uncorrected (for altitude) 12 second quarter mile on pump gas, snow tires and with the ski rack on at Bandimere Speedway just outside of Denver. I also watched it walk away from both a Mustang and a Camaro (both pretty modified) during some late night street racing (not condoning it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif). That car was very docile under 4K rpm. It drove and looked like a normal Eclipse (other than a three inch exhaust pipe, the whole thing not just a resonator, nor did it have any wings, decals or any other 'ricer' equipment). Above 4K it was a totally different car and made power to 8K rpm. The owner of that car put 60K miles on it while he had it including driving up the passes in the Rockies for skiing and snowboarding trips. The only weak spot was the clutch. It was physically too small too handle that power on a regular basis. It was fine for normal driving but would wear out quickly when the car was caned.

The expense to make small four bangers put out that kind of power reliably definitely gives the advantage to V8's. Much cheaper to build V8's with that power output. The four cylinders won't get any real weight advantage either. By the time you add in all the electronics and the intercoolers and all the other little things to make that four cylinder extremely potent. The combined weight is nearly identical to a small block V8. With the V8, there isn't a whole lot that can go wrong as it's very simple. The turboed four has a whole host of things that can go wrong as those systems get extremely complex to make that power.

If I had to choose between a V8 and a turbo charged I4. I would take the V8. Without hesitating.

Mike, I can understand idolizing your father. In fact, I've never really seen a negative comment (that I would believe) about your dad. However, stating we don't know an 'Nth' of what your dad does is a little schoolyardish and offensive.

I know that defending V8 swaps into LBC's has got you both a little on edge as you are so quick to defend and justify the conversion. I also know that you have had to defend your position quite a bit and corrected many misconceptions in the process. Which is nice and I'm sure appreciated by some. But lets try and keep it friendly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grouphug.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grouphug.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grouphug.gif
 
You got the time and $$, anything is possible. V8 skateboards,wheelchairs and pallet jacks!!

I found that doing my V8 conversion was relatively inexpensive and the results were undeniably exciting. IMHO, it's REALLY hard to beat the bang for the buck (and time) using a donor V8 car. Typically no need for fancy "plumbing" or programming. For me the biggest challenge was installing a new differential securely to handle to power. I don't have any chrome or polished engine parts, so I ain't winning any open hood contests. But my priorites got it on the road and under budget (per the REAL boss)

let your passion be your path.......
jeff3113
 

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Mike, I can understand idolizing your father. In fact, I've never really seen a negative comment (that I would believe) about your dad. However, stating we don't know an 'Nth' of what your dad does is a little schoolyardish and offensive.

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Shawn,

I believe Mike was giving me a tounge-in-cheek put-down, rather than bragging on me. I think he was refering to my tendency to be a bit "professorial" and somewhat argumentive (heaven knows he and I have had our share of arguments over the years, as anyone who has raised a son through the teen years can relate to).
 
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Mike, I can understand idolizing your father. In fact, I've never really seen a negative comment (that I would believe) about your dad. However, stating we don't know an 'Nth' of what your dad does is a little schoolyardish and offensive.

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Shawn,

I believe Mike was giving me a tounge-in-cheek put-down, rather than bragging on me. I think he was refering to my tendency to be a bit "professorial" and somewhat argumentive (heaven knows he and I have had our share of arguments over the years, as anyone who has raised a son through the teen years can relate to).

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mcmahon.jpg

You are Correct, Sir!

Shawn,

Sorry about that ;-)

The Nth was referring to the Gap between the Virtual Dan Masters online here & the REAL Dan Masters you Might met at any given Car Show.

I have seen it in person myself during our last car show. Dad left up the Parking Lot after we were discussing the days activity plans, when somebody walked up to me that had been watching us previously if I knew Where Dan Masters was. I told him, "You just missed him-- that's him walking up the Parking Lot" ;-) Or on other occasions people will blurt out--- "You are Dan Masters?"

In other words... You never Know when you might just Bump into Dad--- You won't see it coming.

You talk about your Mother Hens? When Dad puts on a Car Show he makes sure that everybody's Needs are being taken care of & that everybody is having a Good Time and that they are Getting their Money's Worth at all Times!!

Broke down on the Highway--- Who knows?? Dan just might be Driving By at that Very Moment ;-)

Cheers!
M
 
heck, i love all engines

but just as an FYI....turbocharged cars almost always develop more torque than horsepower :smile:
 
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Mike, I can understand idolizing your father. In fact, I've never really seen a negative comment (that I would believe) about your dad. However, stating we don't know an 'Nth' of what your dad does is a little schoolyardish and offensive.

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Shawn,

I believe Mike was giving me a tounge-in-cheek put-down, rather than bragging on me. I think he was refering to my tendency to be a bit "professorial" and somewhat argumentive (heaven knows he and I have had our share of arguments over the years, as anyone who has raised a son through the teen years can relate to).

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You are Correct, Sir!

Shawn,

Sorry about that ;-)

The Nth was referring to the Gap between the Virtual Dan Masters online here & the REAL Dan Masters you Might met at any given Car Show.

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Ah ha! Well then I apologize for missing the familial barb. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I've been trying to get a handle on Mikes sense of humor with his massively increased activity since his trip to PR. Is that possible or do I just throw in the towel now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dan, we did almost meet once. At the VTR in Breckenridge Colorado, 2001. Got a lot of that 'you just missed him'. Mike, don't know if you were there or not. I was busy running some events and helping to keep the whole shebang operating from behind the scenes. We have a mutual friend in Denver (Larry Hoy) though I haven't seen him for a few years since he started vintage racing (schedules don't match for me to catch up to him there).

BTW, when the time comes for a new engine in my TR8, I'm planning on the 'no replacement for displacement' route. Though I will stick with the Rover V8, looking at upping the displacement to a 4.0l or 4.2l. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Also, though I have no intent to perform an engine swap in my TR6 (I really like the I6 and its sound) I have no issues with engine conversions as long as they are well thought out and well executed. American V8's in British sports cars are not exactly new or blasphemous and I'm not only referring to a certain Texas Chicken farmer. He might have been the most famous but certainly was not the only one or the first.

Keep up the good work with the British V8 Newsletter (I guess I should join some time) and Advanced Auto Wire.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
I've seen a 'Pro Street' Metropolitan before but that is the first 'Gasser' one that I have seen. Don't think that plastic hemi and huffer will do him much good though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
I'm sorry, I got in this one a little late. As anyone who has seen my post, I am currently putting a 5.0 in a TR7. It's slow going mainly because I'm broke. The biggest reason I went with an American V8 was price. I could buy an engine, trans, and diff for what I could rebuild the 4 cylinder for. Besides, it's different. Nothing like that throaty, ground pounding roar a V8 gives. Man, this got me ALL worked up. Gonna have to go work on the 7 now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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I'm sorry, I got in this one a little late. As anyone who has seen my post, I am currently putting a 5.0 in a TR7. It's slow going mainly because I'm broke. The biggest reason I went with an American V8 was price. I could buy an engine, trans, and diff for what I could rebuild the 4 cylinder for. Besides, it's different. Nothing like that throaty, ground pounding roar a V8 gives. Man, this got me ALL worked up. Gonna have to go work on the 7 now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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For More Compelling Evidence... Look behind this Door --> www.britishv8.org

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Before... (Dad & I)




After... Now, I have Boy Toys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cowboy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cowboy.gif
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Psssssssssst... Come over Here! Click on Selected Pics for Extra Treats /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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shhhhhhh......not everyone knows it's plastic....

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Hey Yankee,

460spit2.jpg

Try this On for Size... Unavailable to Jr for a Nightly Spin /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif
Triumph Spitfire with a 460cid Chevy V8 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Definitely, a Sick Puppy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nonod.gif

https://www.britishv8.org/Triumph/460spit.htm
 
OK I know I'm late to this one, but I figured what the heck? It's not a Triumph, but a Bugeye Sprite. My friend and his dad built the car.

https://www.ntahc.org/modifiedhealeys/Photos/126Marian/Marian.htm

No shoehorn needed, though thousands of hours in designing and building keep everything under the hood and stock appearing. The wheels do throw it off, especially if you see the car from the rear and get a peek at those 275mm rear tires.

The car handles well and rides very smooth, despite it's short wheelbase, though traction upon acceleration tends to be a small problem. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The pictures in that link are old as I believe they're on Rev. 3 of the intake. It also now has electric power steering as well as a hydraulic fan out of a Viper. The fuel injection still needs some tweaking, but for the most part, the car runs very well.
 
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