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Should I be torqued?

judow

Darth Vader - R.I.P
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Well Agatha and I went to a local show to support the volunteer fire department and I walked around the show and a vendor had lots of interesting items on her table. I looked at the cards and there it was "Agatha" on a Father's Day card. I asked her (I already knew) where she got the photo and she said she took it a car show. I asked her if she had a release and she said yes. I then said I wanted all the cards with the Healey on them and she said she only had two left. I took the cards and when she told me the price I informed her that she did not have permission and indeed it was my car. She said I took the photo at a public show so... Long story short I now have 2 cards with Agatha's photo. I'm not sure if I should be angry or flattered. Anyway it was a nice show with many different cars and the weather was splendid.

:driving:

P.S. I did explain to her why she couldn't just use the photo without permission and I did not pay her for the cards. She sold them for $3.50 each.
 
Consider it a compliment. Any other position would be silly! Actually, <span style="font-weight: bold">her photograph</span> taken of <span style="text-decoration: underline">your car</span> in a public setting, is <span style="font-weight: bold">her property</span> and she can have it copyrighted. Professional photographers do this all the time. The key to the legal position is that your car was in a public setting. You can always try to fight it but you would be in a very weak position.

T
 
Kelly says it's a fine line but probably legal. If it was a picture of a painting or pottery or some other "art" work then no. Problem is it is a car. They can sell the pic, but not use it for advertisement purposes.
 
At a car show a couple of years ago, someone took a photo of the "2.4L" emblem in the grille of my MK2 Jag, and published it. Obvious, as the body colour showed.
I was chuffed...free publicity!
We're here to show our cars and garner attention.
Heck, we wouldn't drive these beasties if we didn't want that.

Dave
 
:thankyousign: for the response. I have to be honest and say that I was miffed. I felt like she was profiting at my expense. Interestingly I would have been delighted to give her permission. At a high end show I was asked by a professional photographer if I would allow him to photo Agatha and make it a part of his portfolio. I said yes and signed a release form. Didn't mind doing it at all.

As to showing Agatha it is not for the award but rather to foster an appreciation for these LBC's and generally there is a sign I use that says, "For Display Only - Do Enjoy me." Also driving Agatha is selfishly just pure pleasure.

I do however know where you are coming from, Dave and perhaps the sun clouded my judgment and I shouldn't have been so curt. I am taking your advice to heart.
 
It's not just where the car was when the picture was taken but also where the photographer was when the picture was taken. I can take a picture of your house from the street or sidewalk and do whatever I want with it and own the copyright to the photo. Which is why the papparazzi can climb a tree outside someones house and take pictures without it being considered trespassing etc... Although how papparazzi photographs are taken and published fall under fair use news/informational provisions.

If the car show in question is in a public place, you can't keep it from being photographed and technically the photographer can copyright the image and you have zero recourse. If the car show is on private property then it is up to the property (land)owner to enforce any sort of photographic limitations or restrictions/permissions. You as the car owner are again powerless (unless you also happen to be the land owner and the photographer was on your land when they took the photo).

All that being said, the photographer that asked your permission and then asked you to sign a release was covering his posterior and satisfying a requirement that may have been, and is often, set forth by publishers if he ever plans to publish a book of photographs. The person that took the photo and then turned it into a card that she most likely self published did not technically need to seek permission to use the photo of your car on her own cards. The "right" thing to do, in my opinion as a professional photographer, would have been to seek your permission first as the other photographer did, especially if her plan from the begining was to use on her cards when she took the picture. On the other hand, if she took a snapshot of your car because she liked it and then later while thumbing through her photographs decided to use it on a card that she made and self published, she should have an effort to find you and give you a copy of the card. If she tokk the photo at a local show then it's usually not hard to keep an eye out at other local shows and find the car and owner again.

If you look on ebay under Triumph TR8 (item number 120623056762 for example), you will find a refrigerator magnet with a photo of my TR8 on it. I did not make, and am not selling the magnet. I contacted the seller and asked them where they got the photo of my car and that I would have appreciated at least a request of permission. I knew that the only place where I had posted the image was on forums where I was clearly identified as the owner so contacting me would not have been difficult. Doesn't mean that it hadn't been transferred to another area or that google photo search still wouldn't pull it up. I did not watermark the photo as copyrighted, even though I can prove I have the original image and try to only post images at no more than 72dpi (low resolution) to limit non-web usage. I was both surprised and flattered when I first saw the magnet selling with a picture of my car that I had taken. I contacted them more out of curiosity than anything else, curiosity in how they would respond. The apologized for not getting permisiion first and offered me a free magnet. Strangely enough, that was all it took to satisfy me. I still get a smile whenever I see it on ebay. Considering that they are selling it from Thailand and they used a noncopyrighted image they could have told me to pound sand and It would have been a long legal haul to get any recompense. Some fights are not worth fighting.


Bottom line: She shouldn't have lied about having a release but she can use the photos she took of your car in a public place without your permission as she owns the copyright of the photo. Yes you own the car but when it is in a public place you cannot control the use of images taken of it. Your car has no right to privacy and no protection of privacy afforded to it. By taking the cards without paying for them you could be charged with petty theft. Letting you walk away with two cards was an easy way to get you on your way. Like I said earlier, some fights are not worth fighting. You would have to prove harm or defamation to you personally from the cards being published with images of your car without your permission to stand a chance in court. In order to do that you would also need to prove that the image of that car could be linked to you personally in a way that could cause defamation or personal harm.

Releases are a good CYA to attempt to prevent lawsuits (but are no guarantee).
 
That was good information. I really appreciate it. As to the cards she willingly accepted my non-payment. I think she thought that by my taking the cards she was let off the hook. There is no doubt that there were more but I think I just wanted to let her know that I didn't appreciate it or her less than truth. I also thought I was right.

Crap - I hate it when I'm wrong!!!

:hammer:
 
She definitely shouldn't have lied about having a release. If I had been in her shoes (having done what she did), as soon as you would have asked for a release I would have said... "no, but if you know the owner I would be happy to talk to them and give them a free card". If you would have still been upset then I would have pulled the cards. Put the photo into photoshop and make it look like a watercolor, line drawing or something else where you would be hard pressed to recognize it as your car, print new cards and would be able to call it "original art".

But then again, if it were me and I had planned on doing something with photo when I took it, then I would have asked for a release.
 
Not wanting to defend the photographer - this is all hazy and will get worse before it gets better, but, when I am at a show I am stunned how many people take pictures of my car. I have no idea what they do with them, but, I will wager that this photographer (and most of the ones who shoot Ms Triss) have no idea what they are actually shooting, they just want a nice picture. That woman likely didn't know Austin Healey from Austin Powers but she likely took a picture of every car the day she actually took the picture and simply kept and printed the best ones.
 
DNK said:
JP, don't you take pics at shows?

actually, rarely. I took a camera to Bronte but, for the most part just prefer to enjoy. I don't take cameras on vacation either. We don't own a camcorder. And not disagreeing with all the pics, just amazed that so many take so many pics - and I know it has increased since the advent of digital.
 
There used to be a good guideline publication called "Photography and the Law". It was given to me by a mentor back when I was starting out at age sixteen or so. An Amazon link.

It's a good idea to print up a few release forms and have 'em in the camera bag as CYA... Shawn knows all this and his explanation is well articulated. :wink:

With the advent of the Web and digital image proliferation it becomes harder to keep ownership of images. For "postcard" size reproductions a (sniped) 72 DPI image could ~almost~ be acceptable. Watermarks and "circle C" © are at least an honest attempt to maintain control.

As for the image of Agatha... if you decide you don't want more of the same, do a variation of what Paul Newman did with his racing team T-shirts:
Make sure to have some obscene or vulgar graphic or placard with obscene phrases visible on the car from any angle! :smirk: :devilgrin:
 
DrEntropy said:
Make sure to have some obscene or vulgar graphic or placard with obscene phrases visible on the car from any angle! :smirk: :devilgrin:

Or you could just plaster Doc's (or my) mug all over it!
grin.gif
 
PERFECT!!! :thumbsup:
 

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TWO-FER-ONE! :laugh:
 
Jus' don't expect to see ME wit' dat collar...
it spontaneously combusts on contact. :devilgrin:
 
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