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seat belts

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121andrews

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New very novice owner of a 66tr4, looking for direction regarding install of 3pt seatbelts, kit came w/car no instruction. thx
 
Does the car have a roll bar? If not, think about where your head will be in case you end up butter-side down.

Also, if the 3rd attachment point is not at or above shoulder height your spine might be subject to some compression forces in the event of a collision.

I have absolutely no scientific or experiental evidence one way or the other but have the impression that being held upright w/o a rollbar might be worse than having some mobility while still strapped in the car. Certainly in a TR3 with it's 'spearpoint' steering column I would think twice about using 3-point belt.
 
Geo, do we think alike or what, took the 3 point out of the 6 and put in laps so I could duck. It doesn't take to many trips out on the interstate to know how small these cars are, next time you go by a big SUV or semi just look to the side and you will be starring into the lug nuts. Wayne
 
[ QUOTE ]
...next time you go by a big SUV or semi just look to the side and you will be starring into the lug nuts...

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had that view and pondered that in a desperate situation I could duck and drive under one of those trailers.

Brings to mind an incident of a Sprite driver who escaped East Berlin by removing the windscreen and dashing thru under the barricade (with his fiancee in the passenger seat and her mother in the boot). Gone before the guards realized what had happened.
 
Most racing bodies prohibit use of 3-point belts if you don't have a roll bar. I STRONGLY suggest using lap belts only w/o a roll bar (they're also easy to install.)

Also keep in mind that most roll bars are fashion accessories held in just with a few bolts. If you want to put in a roll bar, talk to some of the more experienced racers on the forum, and they can tell you the perfect mounting points.
 
I would think any tumble in a TR is likely to leave a lasting impression on its occupants. I have 2 boys who love to go for rides in my TR6 and I installed 3 point belts on the passenger side in hopes it might protect their orthodontia if nothing else. The TR6(after 1970 something) came with a mounting point on the top surface of the wheel arch just forward of the mid point. On my car this mount is tapped and accepted a standard 28 thread 5/8" bolt. I'm not sure if they reinforced this point in any fashion but a drill, a bolt and a few large washers might give you the little bit of extra safety I was looking for as well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
No opinion here, just adding to the mix. The occupants of any vehicle involved on a serious accident truly become passengers at the point of impact and have no control over their destiny. It would be very difficult if not impossible for the average human to physically overcome the forces involved in any vehicular mishap. Thus the government mandates seat belts.

So now we look at 2, 3, 4 and 5 point restraint systems. Just what are the statistics on vehicles such as LBC's turning turtle vs. being involved in a 'regular' accident? If your vehicle stays shiny side up, we need to be concerned about flesh and bone being introduced to the steering wheel, the dash and windscreen. To avoid this contact, we want the most agressive restraint we can get, a properly installed 5 point racing system, yep, everyone I know will go through the ritual of hooking up and cinching down every time they take a Sunday afternoon drive. This is probably when the gov't decided that some restraint system was needed, but it also had to be one that people would use without huge objection, enter the 3 point system.

If we do the roll over thing without a structural rollbar and any kind of restraint system, chances are you will be hurt and probably beyond repair. For what it's worth, several years ago when OSHA started mandating ROPS on heavy equipment, they found they also needed to require seat belts to keep the operator in the seat. Farm equipment manufacturers tell us not to use seat belts if the tractor does not have roll over protection as it will crush you when it rolls.

In our everyday driving, we have to protect ourselves and passengers against the greatest hazard. If it is the standard front end, rear end, side impact accident; stay in the seat and away from sharp and hard objects. If we are worried about roll overs, put in a real roll bar and completely restrain the occupants.

Most domestic, on the street, roll over accidents I have seen are single car and caused by a serious lack in judgement by the operator or a mechanical failure, so it would appear that we have some control over this event occuring. As for cruising next to that semi on the highway, I would not worry about anything other than being "rolled over" by them; no seat belt will help you then. Or perhaps no seat belt would be the only help then???

This got way too long. . . . .
 
I'm glad this topic came up, as I've been driving my 6 for awhile now with no belts at all (I know, stupid, but at least it's usually just me in the car). My cars a 73, and when I bought it it had what appeared to be factory installed three point inertia real type belts, with the mounting holes on the top of the fender arches like someone else mentioned. However, the belts themselves were dryrotted beyond repair or use, so I tossed them. I've been debating whether to install the same type again, or something different. I hate the way the 3 point belt systems look in the car, they look tacked on, like an afterthought, which is probably what they were back in the early 70's. The lap belts look much nicer and appropriate to the cars age, and since I don't have a roll bar of any type installed, maybe I'll take peoples recommendations here and put those type in. Since my son is now out of the infant stages, my wife is hoping to be able to come for rides with me in the car this coming season when a babysitter is available, and I want belts in it for her. I really like the look of the vintage competition type belts that Moss sells, so maybe I'll splurge and get those. If I ever install a proper rollbar, not just a dressup one, I'll put in 4 or 5 point belts at that point.
 
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...stay in the seat and away from sharp and hard objects...

[/ QUOTE ]

To that end I removed the TR3 passenger 'grab handle' some years back. Doesn't make the dash cap rail any softer but does allow a little more room before the passenger hits something hard.

You are quite right that roll-overs are rare -- I sometimes think that in a serious TR accident the seat belt merely allows you to have an open-casket funeral.
 
It seems that Derek died for his convictions...noble but not very healthy.
As for being able to 'duck' or in any other way squirming oneself out of trouble in case of a flip without a roll bar...I just can't see it happening.
As a VERY fit and VERY athletic teenager ( some years ago...) I was a lap belt wearing passenger in a vehicle that ended up feet up.
I felt like a rag doll with no chance whatsoever to counter the forces of being tossed about.
I was extremely lucky and not seriously hurt.
Needless to say, I've been a firm believer in three (or more) point belts ever since.
 
I was in a rollover in a BMW a few years back. I had a death grip on the side of the seat and door handle pull since I saw it coming. When the car ended up on it's passengers side after going over twice, I was holding the door handle pull that I tore off the door, and broke the fingernails on three fingers when the seat rails collapsed. I also managed to bite my tounge hard enough that I was spitting blood. That being said, every collision has a different set of circumstances and conditions. I try not to think about how much safer than the TR6 my BMW's are, I think about how much safer the TR is than the Ducati it replaced.
 
Statistically you have an EXPONENTIALLY better chance of hitting something in a forward direction than rolling one of these cars. Hit something with no shoulder restraint and you're going to be leaving teeth in the dash. If it doesn't have some type of shoulder harness there should be one installed. If you want to cover all of the bases install a roll bar too.

That said, everyone voiced their opinions about the value, or lack of, seatbelts but it seems to me that no one answered the original question. I for one am interested in hearing about someone's experience INSTALLING 3 point inertial seatbelts since I too have a TR4 with no belts and a kit from Moss that came with no instructions. (Must be the dreaded liability again.)
 
The universal opinion in the autocross/track day part of the Miata world (where there's a similar worry about rollovers in an open car) is that you want a 3 point belt without a roll bar, as the diagonal chest strap will allow you to be displaced laterally in the event of a rollover. The stricture against belts without a roll bar is against 4/5/6 point belts, where you're held tightly upright and can't be displaced laterally in a rollover. With a roll bar (a real one, not the rather flimsy affairs you see in many LBCs), 4/5/6 points are the best option.

I also strongly agree that your chances of being in a non-rollover crash are much, much greater than a rollover, so going with the odds, I'd opt for the shoulder belt. In fact I've installed them in several LBCs. In the case of the 70s cars, the mounting points are already in place in most cases. In earlier cars, you'll need to find strong points in the body, and mount the anchor points using substantial backing plates to spread the load.

I think with just a lap belt, you're asking for head injuries in a crash. The resulting brain damage may cause addtional purchases of rusty British cars! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
 
I've got a '67 and it didn't have belts when I purchased it last year. Moss supplied the belts but as I said, but did not include any instructions. I'm sure I can drill a hole, put the BIG washer supplied with the belts on the inside of the wheel well and go from there, but this is such a large forum I was hoping that when I saw this thread pop up someone would be able to share their experience installing shoulder inertial reels in a car not originally equipped with shoulder belts. There aren't many projects that I've done that I was 100% happy with. Even if it's something tiny I'd love to learn from someone else's experience.

Anyone?
 
Bob, since nobody wants to give you advise on your installation I will give you what I have seen and the way my TR6 is drilled. Get a level, set in your car at normal height, stick the level on your shoulder, now measure twelve inches down over your rear wheel well and keep going toward the rear of the car until you hit it, drill your hole there in the center of the well. For a little bit of added insurance I would add a large washer on the carpet side also to aid in the prevention of tear out of the sheet medal, just paint it black, if your carpet is black. Wayne
 
That's what I've done in the past - 'tho thankfully I've never had to test the effectiveness......
 
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