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Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NOT

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ncbugeye

ncbugeye

Jedi Warrior
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In the Topic labeled "Clutch Problems" started by Dr_EluSivE, healeyboz raises an interesting side point when he says "replace it all while you have it out".

In the old days these cars sold to people who were not "independently wealthy" but wanted simple fun. Parts for them were cheap, and mechanics were sadly very low-paid. Nowadays the parts for Spridgets are mind-numbingly expensive and mechanics are somewhat better paid, although maybe still not well-paid.

The point I am going to try and address is that some folks have projects that are stalled and likely to remain that way for ever simply because they can't afford the parts or the labour. These folks need a way to move forward - even if only by making sure they have the best INFORMATION available to them.

I'd like your opinions on the following... Yes I know there are some unanswered assumptions and generalizations, but humour me.

Let's start with the engine - let's assume it runs at least minimally before it is dismantled.

What parts ABSOLUTELY MUST be replaced, and which parts can be SAFELY reused by a budget-constrained LBC owner. Of course there are cases where it is a clear if-badly-worn-then-replace situation. But let's try to make a map of some kind.

What machining operations (boring, grinding, reaming, etc) ABSOLUTELY MUST be performed and what can be omitted?

Maybe ABSOLUTELY MUST is too stark, maybe we need a sliding scale from 1 to 5, or something.

Guffaws?
 
Chris, These are old worn-out motors in most cases, so they need alot. Here's a short list of what I do most of the time when I rebuild a engine.

Bore cylinder for oversized pistons
Line bore block
Grind crank
Size connecting rods and replace rod bolts, go with ARP bolts
Relpace cam and lifters with really good stufs, big time important if you don't want to be back in there in 10,000 miles or less.
Renew anything the head needed, valve seats, valves, springs, seals, guides, etc.
Deck the head, and sometimes the blaock, always check with a straight edge, anything more than .002' skim cut it.
And this is just the major stuff, but there is alot of little things, like replacing freeze plugs, drilling out the oil galley plugs so you can clean in there, I go back with NPT plugs some repalce back with the original brass plugs. Of course several washing of the block, I caustic washed a MGB block yesterday, it will be the first of three cleanings of this block, it was terribly gunked up, it's good thing the guy brought to me whe n he did, he was truely living on borrowed time. Then there is clean up of all the sheet metal parts, I clean and bead blast all the engine sheetmetal, front and rear plates, oil pan, lifter covers, valve cover etc,. and then paint all piece separately. Main thing is to do it right, if not you'll be doing it again alot sooner than you want.

And then once the engine is rebuilt you need to address all the items that will help your engine run without them all the nice engine work in the world is useless. Most of the time rebuilding the carbs is aprt of the overall deal as well as rebuilding or replacing the distributor and coil, rember all this stuff is terribly old and most of the time it saw it's usefullness, so it needed renwewing or replacing. I always get tickle when I see a LBC ownere ask for a running used motor, our cars are old, so unless you can confirm a rebuild on a used engine, fiquire it's wore slap out.


To answer your question what needs to be replaced, most of the time measurements will tell you that, if it's out of spec, then there ya go, it needs re-doing or replacing. As far as a sliding scale, without measuring, and inpsecting it nothing more than guess.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

First off let me say that I agree with Hap, second let me say that I bought an engine for $50, pulled the head off to vacuum out the corn that the mice were storing in it, replaced the head gasket, pulled the pan for a look see and siliconed it back on, and ran the engine for a year. Now realize that I had no money to do anything else but park the car; a proper rebuild was not an option for me at the time. That being said I’ll take my guess at the sliding scale.

This assumes you do the work yourself less machining, have AAA for a tow home and a good sense of humor:
1 = Might as well while it is out
5 = Engine will look like my track car at Summit Point when you are done (This is a bad thing)

Head gasket set – 5
Conversion Gasket Set – 5
Water Pump – 1
Oil Pump - 3 (check clearances with a feeler gauge, 5 otherwise)
Cam – 1 (be sure to keep lifters to lobe matched)
Cam bearings – 1
Timing gears – 1
Timing chain – 2 (look at it close though)
Valve job – 3
Intake valve seals – 4 (keep the smoking down a bit)
Rings – 4 Assumes that it passed a leak down test, would be 5 otherwise
Main and Rod bearings – 5 – Just do it
948 / 1098 / 1275 Thrust bearings – 2 assuming the end float on the crank is within limits
1500 Thrust bearings – 5
Pistons – 3 – See rings – If the bore is ok
Cylinders – Bore and hone if out of spec (5) then piston and rings are a 5, deglaze if new rings (4), deglaze if reused rings (3), (1) if you make money when you go to Vegas.
Clutch pressure plate – 2
Clutch disk – 3
Throw out bearing – 4

I just bought new Nomex; let the flaming begin.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

I don't have anything informative to add here, as I'm completely new at any engine work. This is a timely thread, though, as I have a running but unknown 1275 sitting on my garage floor, ready to go on a stand for whatever refreshing I can do. My ideal would be minimal work before putting it in the Tunebug for the summer, then pull it in the late fall for a complete rebuild.

Don't know how realistic this is, however.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

Drew, do it first and save some time and money. All this putting off is going to bite you, you know where.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

I guess I'm just anxious to see how the engine will work in the mountains. But you're probably right, just need to be a little more patient and get it done right.

Wish I lived closer to Hap, though... love to have him work on the motor.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

My Granddad used to tell me: "If you're gonna open it - open it once! If it's something that wears, replace it while it's open; or open it a second time when you don't want to." That's been a pretty good rule for me since I opened my first engine back in 1960-61!
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

Engine will work fine, take Haps advise and start now doing a bit at a time. It is not really the expense it is the time it takes to get everything machined and parts on the shelf, etc. Oh yea, a fresh engine should have/will have maybe up to a third more power than an old tired one.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

I'll take the other side (just to have an argument)

These motors are easy to pull in and out. Put it in and make sure you have good oil pressure and flow to the top. Then run it a little. You may get 40,000 miles or more out of it.

Before college I had to get a car cheap. I bought a '78 celica and put a used motor in it that had 150,000 miles on it. I ran it for 75,000 miles, but sold the car because it was using a half a quart of oil every 2500 miles and the power was getting low. But I chose to gamble out of necessity, but since I had so little invested all I was going to lose was my time.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

I am going to side with Trevor on this one. But bear in mind:

1) I enjoy working on my car as much as driving it
2) I got several thousand miles on a COMPLETELY worn out engine right after I bought my car.
3) I am about to pull my newly rebuilt engine that has only 1400 miles (but I believe that has more to do with my seat of the pants EFI and spark settings than my half-assed engine build. When the engine goes back in I WILL be investing in dyno time,)
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

Thanks for all the input and note that I don't think I am in this actual situation but I know people who are.

These people are not necessarily persuaded by the "while you've got it out, you might as well..." approach. Many of them ALREADY have the engine in pieces and need a strategy so their LBC can run again, even if it won't win the 2007 Le Mans 24 Hour Race. These people also have sweat equity available, ie they'd be happy to take the engine out AGAIN in Feb 2008 if they could get the car on the road for the spring and fall of 2007. If I were in this situation the number of times I'd take out the engine would be of no consequence to me - as I think is also the case with many of you - it's part of the deal as far as I'm concerned, you know, heat/kitchen etc.

Hap, your input is very valuable, and you may be hearing from me in the future, (gotta get me some of those Aussie Minilite-alikes), but how much does that set of operations you detailed actually cost? What can be avoided in a sub-optimal world, just so our buddies with only a razor-thin budget can get back in the driving seat again, and feel the wind in their hair (or in my case on their bald heads)?
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

Kind of depends what you find wrong or that needs attention.

Could be most anything or very little.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

I am on a *very* limited (so much so I'm now buying only parts on ebay) budget so as a rule I only replace what's broken. I had the head off and then some earlier this fall, I know my piston rings should've been replaced BUT it's not just a case of replacing rings, there's always 20 other expensive things that have go in line with it.
I know they'll need replacing eventually, but as mentioned, it's not too difficult when the need arises, to get back in there.
If it runs for me, and stops for me and is generally roadworthy, I drive it. I don't have machines that re-bore, I can't afford a full monty at the machine shop nor can I afford ARP studs here there and everywhere.

I simply buy what I need at that time to get me moving again.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

Just a word of caution Baz, before you bid on ebay parts do a little research. Too many people get caught in the ebay bidding frenzy and pay more than they could have just gone out and bought the part for elsewhere!!
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

Oh, I do, I have the catalogs handy to see what new is and will never pay more than 30% of new, unless it's unavailable.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

Good rule. Lots of folks seem to be buying from vendors and then putting dirctly on ebay for increased prices.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

I bought a 1275 at a swap meet 5 yrs ago, installed it and have had a world of fun with it. However, it does smoke a little and it does leak a little oil. That is a good thing for the undercarriage of the car. I have driven the car for 5 years, (value, priceless), am now rebuilding the whole car with a fresh motor. These issues are all time and money related. I did have the head rebuilt, so it is sure to be good. My question is what is a complete motor in this condition worth.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

A new rebuild, what specs? Just any old motor that turns free maybe 300 bucks.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

Chris, I'm firmly in the camp with Hap and ChrisS. There are certain parts you really should replace while you're in the engine but others that can be debated if you're on a tight budget. I understand you had a discussion related to this with my friend Dean. When he's discussed rebuilds with me I've always encouraged him to have the parts balanced, he doesn't think it's necessary. It's a difference of opinions and expectations. I'd rather pay the money to do the job completely when I'm in there. I hate doing a job twice. I'm not a fan of a budget engine rebuilds.
 
Re: Replace it all while you have it out ... OR NO

If done to spec's and built for the street an engine (with Hap's recommended proceedure) will be an engine for 100k with proper maintenance. Half a rebuild is asking for something on a component level that'd be cheap compared to the consequence of NOT replacing it. Build it like it was a watch. No such thing as a "budget" rebuild, IMO. I've turned away work rather than do it "on the cheap."
 
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