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Marvin Gruber
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I have an old AC test panel ( about 4'sq) on wheels that was used in a Kmart garage back in the 70's. I been meaning to try it out to see just what it will do. Just haven't got there.
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OP
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My mechanic friend came by today (long-time experience with Triumphs, Austin-Healeys, MGs, etc., etc.) to repair my distributor.
As I said earlier, I couldn't find the properly configured advance springs for the weights in the distributor, so I ordered the ones supplied by MOSS and bent the ends into the correct angles.
My friend removed the old springs (rusted almost beyond movement and way too stiff) and installed the two lightest MOSS springs (modified by me) -- as recommended by Jeff the distributor guy.
Then, using an advance timing light (4 degrees advance) and his expert ear, my friend checked the timing. At last, we could set the timing at 4 degrees advance and, when the motor was revved up to 2500 rpm, the mark on the pulley advanced as it should and, when the motor returned to about 800-900 rpm, the mark returned exactly to the 4 degree mark. Then, revving the car to 3500, the mark moved out of sight (advance),and when the motor returned to about 800-900 rpm, the mark returned exactly to the 4 degree mark. My friend said that this is exactly what it is supposed to do and was not doing with the old defective spings.
My friend then tinkered with the mix and got things "just right."
He added that it would have been very hard to get this right just using the "static timing method." (I'm not taking sides here, but for me the advance timing light method is way easier than the static method.)
He also added (as most of you already know) that until the distributor is working properly and the timing is as correct as you can get it, no amount of working on the carbs or the idle will make the engine run well.
Lesson learned: the MOSS springs, although not exactly correct, can be used if correctly configured ones are not available. According to Jeff, you should use the two lightest springs. Just be very careful when bending the ends into the correct 90 degree configuration that you don't stretch the springs.
I won't say that this is "the way" to do it, but it works for me.
As I said earlier, I couldn't find the properly configured advance springs for the weights in the distributor, so I ordered the ones supplied by MOSS and bent the ends into the correct angles.
My friend removed the old springs (rusted almost beyond movement and way too stiff) and installed the two lightest MOSS springs (modified by me) -- as recommended by Jeff the distributor guy.
Then, using an advance timing light (4 degrees advance) and his expert ear, my friend checked the timing. At last, we could set the timing at 4 degrees advance and, when the motor was revved up to 2500 rpm, the mark on the pulley advanced as it should and, when the motor returned to about 800-900 rpm, the mark returned exactly to the 4 degree mark. Then, revving the car to 3500, the mark moved out of sight (advance),and when the motor returned to about 800-900 rpm, the mark returned exactly to the 4 degree mark. My friend said that this is exactly what it is supposed to do and was not doing with the old defective spings.
My friend then tinkered with the mix and got things "just right."
He added that it would have been very hard to get this right just using the "static timing method." (I'm not taking sides here, but for me the advance timing light method is way easier than the static method.)
He also added (as most of you already know) that until the distributor is working properly and the timing is as correct as you can get it, no amount of working on the carbs or the idle will make the engine run well.
Lesson learned: the MOSS springs, although not exactly correct, can be used if correctly configured ones are not available. According to Jeff, you should use the two lightest springs. Just be very careful when bending the ends into the correct 90 degree configuration that you don't stretch the springs.
I won't say that this is "the way" to do it, but it works for me.
OP
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Hi, Don,
Yes, indeed, this guy is a real treasure. He owned a foreign car repair shop here in town for about 30 years and it had the best reputation in the entire county. After he retired, with back trouble, he taught auto mechanics in the vocational high school for some years. Now he occasionally gives instructional sessions to car clubs. He's the kind of mechanic we all hope to meet: down to earth, very careful, skilled at finding ways around problems, knowledge from years and years of practice.
He's been a friend for at least 40 years. I hesitate to impose on his time to help me but he always counters by saying that I should call him any time because this kind of work is fun for him.
Car guys... I have found ... both locally and in this Forum, are great guys.
Yes, indeed, this guy is a real treasure. He owned a foreign car repair shop here in town for about 30 years and it had the best reputation in the entire county. After he retired, with back trouble, he taught auto mechanics in the vocational high school for some years. Now he occasionally gives instructional sessions to car clubs. He's the kind of mechanic we all hope to meet: down to earth, very careful, skilled at finding ways around problems, knowledge from years and years of practice.
He's been a friend for at least 40 years. I hesitate to impose on his time to help me but he always counters by saying that I should call him any time because this kind of work is fun for him.
Car guys... I have found ... both locally and in this Forum, are great guys.
OP
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Just a note to newbies... like myself:
From reading this thread, you will see that before you try to tune your car (balance carbs, set the mixture, set the idle, install new needles, etc.) be sure the timing is correct. This comes first; all the work on the other side of the car comes after.
Use the static method or the dynamic method -- or a combination of both (my preference) -- to get the timing as correct as modern fuels and old cars will allow. And don't just adjust the timing but look under the contact breaker base in the distributor and check out the two springs attached to the weights. If the distributor is 50 years old, it is possible that the springs will be frozen (rusted) solid or someone may have put in the wrong springs or -- unlikely -- a spring may be broken or have lifted off its post. New springs with the correct configuration are no longer available from the big suppliers, but you can adapt some Moss springs (see the thread for information). Also, if gunk has built up on the plate, clean it well, and put a few drops of clean engine oil (not grease) on the moving parts of the plate before reassembling.
Once the timing is correct, you have a fighting chance to continue with the tuning.
If anything I have said raises a red flag, the more experienced contributors to this Forum will correct me.
From reading this thread, you will see that before you try to tune your car (balance carbs, set the mixture, set the idle, install new needles, etc.) be sure the timing is correct. This comes first; all the work on the other side of the car comes after.
Use the static method or the dynamic method -- or a combination of both (my preference) -- to get the timing as correct as modern fuels and old cars will allow. And don't just adjust the timing but look under the contact breaker base in the distributor and check out the two springs attached to the weights. If the distributor is 50 years old, it is possible that the springs will be frozen (rusted) solid or someone may have put in the wrong springs or -- unlikely -- a spring may be broken or have lifted off its post. New springs with the correct configuration are no longer available from the big suppliers, but you can adapt some Moss springs (see the thread for information). Also, if gunk has built up on the plate, clean it well, and put a few drops of clean engine oil (not grease) on the moving parts of the plate before reassembling.
Once the timing is correct, you have a fighting chance to continue with the tuning.
If anything I have said raises a red flag, the more experienced contributors to this Forum will correct me.
OP
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CJD,
I have found the same thing. The service manuals leave a lot unsaid, so the good additional information from members of this Forum is of great help. It's why this Forum is "the best."
I have found the same thing. The service manuals leave a lot unsaid, so the good additional information from members of this Forum is of great help. It's why this Forum is "the best."
OP
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The number of practicing mechanics who know anything about these old engines and their components, carburetors for example, is growing smaller and smaller by the year. Moreover, forget about parts and tools. Our local NAPA auto parts store, for example, doesn't even have timing lights in stock and hasn't had a request for one for some years! When I describe to the guys who work there some of the things I'm doing on my car, they just give me a blank look.
TR3driver
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A better way to do this check, IMO, is to hook up a timing light and watch what the timing mark does as you slowly rev the engine up and let it back down. You should be able to see the mark appear to move steadily with rpm, not jump around or stay in one place. There may be an upper limit to the movement (depending on which distributor is installed), but it should not be until the rpm is fairly high.LexTR3 said:
This will point out problems not just with the springs, but also worn bushings or the point cam binding on the shaft.
Ed, I'm not questioning whether you can hit exactly 4 degrees BTDC better with a light; but rather whether 4 degrees is "exactly right". Most people still running 83mm liners find that they get more power and burn less fuel up around 8 degrees.
But since you apparently now have no idea how fast the timing advances, perhaps it is safer to stick with 4 degrees.
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Randall,
In fact that is exactly what my mechanic friend did -- With the new springs in place, he hooked up an advance timing light and watched the timing mark as he slowly revved the engine to 2500 rpms and let it back down. The mark advanced steadily with rpms -- it didn't jump around or stay in one place. At 2500-2700 rpms, the advance, as measured by the advance timing light, was around 15 degrees. (This matches about what the manual calls for.) As the rpms returned to idle, the mark returned to the beginning position, which was established with 4 degrees advance on the advance timing light. I believe there was an upper limit to the advance at 3500 to 4000 rpms at which it no longer advanced -- but I'm not sure about this.
Before the new springs were installed, the timing mark didn't advance as it should and jumped around some. Very inconsistent.
With the new springs in place and the timing performing as it should, and by physically checking the distributor, my mechanic friend determined that the bushing was not unduly worn.
Neither of us felt that we had "exactly 4 degrees" BTDC but close enough. I'll mention the 8 degrees to him.
I should add that after setting all this by the timing light and "by the book," so to speak, my friend then fine-tuned the timing, idle, and mix until to his ear it sounded right. This is a procedure I can't do because my friend can draw on 30-plus years of experience with these distributors and these cars.
As for knowing how fast the timing advances, all I can say is that my friend said that ĂŻt looks right" and ĂŻt "sounds right."
Bottom line: the car runs extremely well -- smooth, good acceleration, good power up hills, good smooth idle, no pinging. I don't think I could ask for better performance.
One other observation: Before replacing the springs on the weights in the distributor, I had to keep the idle at 1100-1200 rpms or the engine would become very lumpy and sometimes stall. Once the new springs were in and the timing was finally set properly, I was able to lower the idle to about 800 rpms while maintainning a smooth idle, and may be able to go even lower.
In fact that is exactly what my mechanic friend did -- With the new springs in place, he hooked up an advance timing light and watched the timing mark as he slowly revved the engine to 2500 rpms and let it back down. The mark advanced steadily with rpms -- it didn't jump around or stay in one place. At 2500-2700 rpms, the advance, as measured by the advance timing light, was around 15 degrees. (This matches about what the manual calls for.) As the rpms returned to idle, the mark returned to the beginning position, which was established with 4 degrees advance on the advance timing light. I believe there was an upper limit to the advance at 3500 to 4000 rpms at which it no longer advanced -- but I'm not sure about this.
Before the new springs were installed, the timing mark didn't advance as it should and jumped around some. Very inconsistent.
With the new springs in place and the timing performing as it should, and by physically checking the distributor, my mechanic friend determined that the bushing was not unduly worn.
Neither of us felt that we had "exactly 4 degrees" BTDC but close enough. I'll mention the 8 degrees to him.
I should add that after setting all this by the timing light and "by the book," so to speak, my friend then fine-tuned the timing, idle, and mix until to his ear it sounded right. This is a procedure I can't do because my friend can draw on 30-plus years of experience with these distributors and these cars.
As for knowing how fast the timing advances, all I can say is that my friend said that ĂŻt looks right" and ĂŻt "sounds right."
Bottom line: the car runs extremely well -- smooth, good acceleration, good power up hills, good smooth idle, no pinging. I don't think I could ask for better performance.
One other observation: Before replacing the springs on the weights in the distributor, I had to keep the idle at 1100-1200 rpms or the engine would become very lumpy and sometimes stall. Once the new springs were in and the timing was finally set properly, I was able to lower the idle to about 800 rpms while maintainning a smooth idle, and may be able to go even lower.
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tdskip,
You are right. Time to hit the back roads of the beautiful Valley of Virginia... In fact, run well or not, I've been putting on the miles since January. Any day is a good day for a ride... to echo that other adage: Any day above ground is a good day.
However... and there's always a however with me ... now that the timing is correct (or as correct as we can get it), on some rainy day I will probably go through the carb balancing and mixture setting routine again to get it just right.
One more last thought on static timing vs dynamic timing. I have come to the conclusion that a combination of the two is the way to go. Using the static timing method, I can get to TDC. Then, using the dynamic timing method I can advance it four degrees and check the advance at 2500 and 3500 rpms. Thereafter, from time to time, I can use the advance timing light to check on the timing. Does this sound reasonable?
You are right. Time to hit the back roads of the beautiful Valley of Virginia... In fact, run well or not, I've been putting on the miles since January. Any day is a good day for a ride... to echo that other adage: Any day above ground is a good day.
However... and there's always a however with me ... now that the timing is correct (or as correct as we can get it), on some rainy day I will probably go through the carb balancing and mixture setting routine again to get it just right.
One more last thought on static timing vs dynamic timing. I have come to the conclusion that a combination of the two is the way to go. Using the static timing method, I can get to TDC. Then, using the dynamic timing method I can advance it four degrees and check the advance at 2500 and 3500 rpms. Thereafter, from time to time, I can use the advance timing light to check on the timing. Does this sound reasonable?
swift6
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Ed,
You already stated that your mechaninc friend with 30 plus years experience of tuning these cars already fine tuned your timing, idle and mixture. Why are planning on mucking with it on some rainy day? The only time these cars need CONSTANT tinkering is when everything is worn out. If all the parts are in good shape they can hold their settings for quite some time and many many miles. Don't mess with the carbs or distributor until you notice a change for the worse in your idle, performance, gas mileage etc... Then have your friend teach you how to do it correctly, not just show you.
You already stated that your mechaninc friend with 30 plus years experience of tuning these cars already fine tuned your timing, idle and mixture. Why are planning on mucking with it on some rainy day? The only time these cars need CONSTANT tinkering is when everything is worn out. If all the parts are in good shape they can hold their settings for quite some time and many many miles. Don't mess with the carbs or distributor until you notice a change for the worse in your idle, performance, gas mileage etc... Then have your friend teach you how to do it correctly, not just show you.
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Hi, Shawn,
You are absolutely right, and it is the advice my mechanic friend gave me (except that he said I might want to continue to fine-tune the carbs until I have the idle as low as possible and the carbs running as lean as I can without running too lean.)
One problem -- and it is a bit of an unknown -- is that about a year ago the guy at shop where I have much of my work done was tryig to tune the car and was having trouble. He didn't check the timing, but worked on the mixture and the idle. When he couldn't get things the way he wanted them to be, he put in new needles in the carbs. (My mechanic friend suspects that the guy took out standard SM needles and put in RH rich needles.) The reason for this suspicion is that my mechanic friend said that he was unable to lean the mix for optimum performance. So, he said that now that the timing is set properly, I might want to inspect the needles and, if they are RH needles, re-install SM (standard) needles. If that is done, I will have to re-set the mixture.
I've gotten pretty good at balancing the carbs and setting the mixture and idle, but I have been hindered by the problem with the timing.
You are right also: once the timing has been set, it should remain good for some time, and once the carbs have been balanced and the mixture set, that should remain good for a reasonable time.
All this comes as somewhat of a pleasant surprize to me however because back in 1962, when I had another 58 TR3, the Carbs had to be adjusted almost weekly, and I was told at the time that "that was normal for these cars." It was a complaint I heard from other owners of cars with dual SU carbs. .... But those were the days when some guys changed the oil in their cars once a week, and many others once a month!
You are absolutely right, and it is the advice my mechanic friend gave me (except that he said I might want to continue to fine-tune the carbs until I have the idle as low as possible and the carbs running as lean as I can without running too lean.)
One problem -- and it is a bit of an unknown -- is that about a year ago the guy at shop where I have much of my work done was tryig to tune the car and was having trouble. He didn't check the timing, but worked on the mixture and the idle. When he couldn't get things the way he wanted them to be, he put in new needles in the carbs. (My mechanic friend suspects that the guy took out standard SM needles and put in RH rich needles.) The reason for this suspicion is that my mechanic friend said that he was unable to lean the mix for optimum performance. So, he said that now that the timing is set properly, I might want to inspect the needles and, if they are RH needles, re-install SM (standard) needles. If that is done, I will have to re-set the mixture.
I've gotten pretty good at balancing the carbs and setting the mixture and idle, but I have been hindered by the problem with the timing.
You are right also: once the timing has been set, it should remain good for some time, and once the carbs have been balanced and the mixture set, that should remain good for a reasonable time.
All this comes as somewhat of a pleasant surprize to me however because back in 1962, when I had another 58 TR3, the Carbs had to be adjusted almost weekly, and I was told at the time that "that was normal for these cars." It was a complaint I heard from other owners of cars with dual SU carbs. .... But those were the days when some guys changed the oil in their cars once a week, and many others once a month!
TR3driver
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LexTR3 said:
RH needles would not prevent setting the idle mixture to optimum. They are not rich across the range, but only at mid to upper throttle.
If you can't get the mixture down at idle, the most likely suspect is leaking gaskets inside the jet housing, or the jet itself is worn internally. This is a dangerous condition, since setting the mixture "correctly" at idle will result in being overly lean at cruise; which can lead to overheating or even internal engine damage.
I learned that one the hard way back in college. Dad's TR3A had worn jets and the overly lean mixture eventually burned an exhaust valve stem so badly that the head broke off and went through the piston. He said he looked in the mirror and saw a cloud of engine parts, chasing him down the freeway.
The liner came out in pieces, the rod was bent into a "C", but I cleaned up the mess over Christmas break (without even pulling the engine) and it still runs today (or will, if it ever comes home from the body shop).
HerronScott
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LexTR3 said:
I don't know about H6's but I do know about HS6's. When my TR4A was my daily driver and my wife's Spitfire was her daily driver back in the 80s, I rarely had to touch them once they were rebuilt and I had them tuned in and both of us put over 75,000 miles on each car.
Scott
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Randall,
I have complete rebuild kits for the two jets, which I intend to install as soon as I find the time. (I suspect that the gaskets are worn out in the jets. And one jet sticks a bit.)
In the meanwhile, following your advice, I will not make the carbs any leaner than they are now, and I won't put the new needles in until I can rebuild the jets.
I have complete rebuild kits for the two jets, which I intend to install as soon as I find the time. (I suspect that the gaskets are worn out in the jets. And one jet sticks a bit.)
In the meanwhile, following your advice, I will not make the carbs any leaner than they are now, and I won't put the new needles in until I can rebuild the jets.