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sd80mac7204

sd80mac7204

Jedi Warrior
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As with many people on here, I have an interest in trains. I have been a member of the local model railroad club for about 10 years. This club started in the basement of a dorm on the local College campus 30+ years ago and after a few moves ended up in the basement of an Episcopal church where it has been for nearly 18 years. The layout is a large 2 level layout that takes up half of the basement, is Digitrax DCC operated, and has been under continuous change and upgrading for years. Recently our treasurer contacted the president to inform him that he couldn't write a check for the insurance because his parkinson's made it impossible. Upon taking over the accounts from the treasurer, it was found that records ended in 2008. An account audit found that while we had been paying our insurance, we have not paid our rent to the church in 4 years. 2 years ago we had almost 2K in our account so we voted to stop paying dues until we thinned out the account which worked well but left us with only $13 in our account after the insurance payment. To catch up what we owe to the church it was decided that the 10 members we have chip in $100 a piece and then we start paying $60 a year in dues to cover insurance and rent. So far so good

Then the problem...

A year and a half ago an autistic kid(16) showed up with his caretaker. Being the kind of people we are, we welcomed them in and gave a tour of the layout. The kid was thrilled while the caretaker went outside to smoke. They continued to come back every week with the caretaker dumping the kid off and leaving. We as a group had no idea how to properly meet this kid's needs or handle his outbursts. Our president had a conversation with the caretaker: basically "You guys are welcome but he needs somebody with him". That caretaker then quit and was replaced with another caretaker that we had to have the same talk with. Then we couldn't ever get work done on the layout or run trains because the kid started wanting to do the exact opposite of the agenda, being it a work night or a run night. So to try and get things done our president asked the caretaker if it would be possible to skip one week a month so we could do what we need to do on the layout. This was met with massive hostility. "You cannot exclude him from any club activities! That violates ADA laws! Etc etc...". We are a private club. To become a member, the member body has to vote somebody in and then officially invite the prospective member in. We never voted on this kid and caretaker. When the money issue came to light, we didn't involve the kid or caretaker as they are not members. When word eventually filtered down to the caretaker, he pulled the president outside and literally yelled at him. "I am calling the ADA on you and having the club shut down! How dare you not allow him(kid) to pay his part as a member! We are calling the radio and newspaper and telling them you discriminate against special needs! His father is going to sue you!"

Based on this... If we as a group find a way to work it out with the caretaker and family to keep this kid in the club then one third of the membership will quit...Financially ending the club.
If we vote to ask them (caretaker and kid) not to return... Then we might get sued... Ending us as a club.
We have decided to disband the club and dismantle the layout... This is painful for me but it seems that we have no choice.

I'm sorry that this is long winded but it really bothers me how this has just fallen apart.
 
OK - just winnowing this down to the details: the 16 year old isn't a member of the group. His adult caretaker or parent has the responsibility to supervise him.

I can't see you have any liability under the ADA provisions, as he was never a "member" of the organization.

So why is the club disbanding? It's the young man's caretaker/parent you should be dealing with. The young man is not "in the club" - so where does the "try to keep him in the club" bit come from?

This also points out the massive liability issue for a group of adults who agree to supervise a minor who's "dropped off" with them. I have some personal experience with this.

Tom
 
I'm old school. ADA has gotten nearly out of control in higher ed. too. You simply wouldn't believe the number of college (and even professional school) students that now claim a disability... of some sort, and it's very easy to get some doctor to certify that. I've seen students that need to be tested in a totally silent room, while another one needed to make noise due to Tourette syndrome! Many claim to need double and triple time on an exam (which is days gone by we'd just suck it up and deal with it). As this has grown, the sense of entitlement has exploded (with these student nearly demanding these allowances).
 
My two cents:

1. ADA isn't an issue here, as the young man was never a "member" of the group.

2. I think some ADA problems are due to excessive litigation by self-appointed watch dogs. It's not the ADA act itself.
 
If we lose members we can't afford the rent and insurance.
The church doesn't want the "bad press" whether it's real or fabricated. And because we are in a basement that is accessed by an outdoor storm door We aren't ADA friendly as the steps are steep and there is no way to put up railings and still be able to close the doors.
Any mention to the caretaker or family about them not being members has resulted in nasty verbal confrontations.

This Wednesday I get to go start pulling locomotives and cars off to go home and club owned cars to go to ebay as well as pulling off crossing signals and lights.
Feels like the abandonment process in small scale. Should I put up little "tracks out of service" signs at each crossing?
 
OK - I'm missing something. The young man isn't a member. You're a private club. There is no relationship between him and the club.

https://www.ada.gov/t3hilght.htm

Altho', there may be an issue regarding the church not having ADA access to the basement - but only if the basement is used for public activities. Your RR club isn't a public activity. The family can sue you for ADA issues - but they have no basis as you're not subject to ADA requirements.


Tom
 
Guy gets paid for you guys to babysit his charge? I'm surprised he didn't burst into flames stepping into a church.

Not a constructive comment, I know. The whole thing just sounds wrong.
 
SD,
Not only should you not worry, but you should invite the SOB to sue you, then offer to counter sue whoever is paying the caretaker that abandons the kid. Let them get worked up and find out they've got zip.
Remember, there's no such thing as bad publicity either.
Also, don't negotiate.
**** 'em.
 
Thanks, Tom. I'm passing that on to The president.
 
Hi Tom,
In your link, section 1 "Who is Covered by Title III of the ADA" it says "Entities controlled by religious organizations, including places of worship, are not covered." Does that mean that the family cannot sue a private club as well as the church it is in?
 
This all smells like B.S. The caretaker is throwing around terms that they have no idea what they mean, but make it sound like they can give you a headache.

As many of you know, my daughter is autistic/non-verbal. What you may not know is that she is subject to outbursts, both physically and verbally. We had her in a therapeutic riding program. At first, things went well, but eventually she decided she didn't want to do this anymore and began having outbursts on the horse, lashing out at the volunteers and the horse itself. When we discussed the issues with the program director, they told us that for the safety of the volunteers, the horses and my daughter, that she was getting "booted" from the program. While disappointing, we concurred with the directors decision. It sounds like you have similar grounds here. Just because a kid has special needs does not give them unlimited rights and a "pass" on not being required to maintain acceptable behavior.

As far as the threats -- what can they sue for? What damages are being incurred? If they want to complain to the local media...so what? This is a private club, it's not like you're going to lose sponsorship or advertising dollars?

Worst case, you could pass a by-law stating that all members of the club have to be at least 21 years of age. That eliminates the whole ADA issue.
 
Tom, More than likely if the church wasn't involved and the private club was in a private building the issue would more than likely go away, seeing how the church doesn't want any bad press, they have no choice but to move out. It's a shame one of the members doesn't have a vacant barn or warehouse type building the trains could be moved into. I won't get into the perpetrators of this event, but this sort of thing is getting out of hand and you know who is pushing it, for, $$$. Not all justice is blind! PJ
 
I've only had experience with private club and ADA relationships, so can't speak regarding religious organizations. BUT - the only application I've seen of ADA issues to religious organizations is that those organizations can't discriminate against those with disabilities in employment issues.

Anybody can sue anyone. But I can't see that family having any legal basis for suing under ADA provisions, as the whole situation isn't under ADA. Nor can someone sue the religious organization itself for not having an elevator, etc. Altho' most such organizations here in New England made appropriate changes to accommodate their congregations. Not due to law.

Thus, per the ADA, in areas under USA law, the church/synagogue/temple/mosque etc. isn't *required by federal law* to modify anything according to ADA requirements; it's a religious organization. But if someone can't work there because of (for example) lots of steps to reach the front door, or wheelchair won't fit in the elevator, the organization is required by ADA to make some change - such as a ramp on the steps, or assisting the person enter the elevator with a folded wheelchair.

Hope this helps. I'm just trying to say that in SD's original post, I don't see ADA has anything to do with it.

Tom
 
SD -

Check your PM.

Mickey
 
So y'all have spoken directly to the family?

Here's an idea, change the date of the meet up and don't inform them. Keep it rotating. :wink:

Put a sign up outside that says, "Train meeting tomorrow" and leave it there. :highly_amused:
 
Beat 'm to the punch, call the paper.

Headline:" END OF THE LINE: Special Needs Family Railroads Local Train Group "



Expose them for the self-entitled cabooses they really are :wink:
 
I like that Billy! Gave me a laugh.
 
Unfortunately, the way the law works, you can sue anyone for anything. It seems very unlikely that a court decision would ever go against the club or church; but that doesn't keep anyone with a law degree from filing the suit. And it could easily cost $50k or more just to mount a defense. Most organizations lack both the funds and the taste for such a fight, so they are all-too-frequently willing to settle out of court even when they did nothing wrong.

And, again unfortunately, there are far too many hungry lawyers around, willing to take such a case just in hopes that the defendants will settle.


My suggestion would be to contact whoever has legal custody of the boy, express a willingness to accommodate him within reason, and discuss methods of restraining him from disrupting the activities. I would also be certain to mention that the caregivers are NOT doing their jobs, which is dangerous both for the boy and those around him.

Then present the results and whatever agreement to the membership. If as you say, one third decide they cannot live with the arrangement, then go ahead and disband. But go the distance first. You may find that people on both sides are more reasonable if you can arrive at a concrete agreement to control the boy (eg caregiver must always be present, boy will be taken outside after any outburst, etc.) Of course, it may not happen that way, but IMO it would better to make the attempt than just fold up and quit.

Disclosure: One of my stepsons is autistic (in addition to a raft of other problems like CP & seizure disorder). I've seen how difficult (and frustrating) it is to find people who are willing to properly care for him. But any caregiver who would just "drop him off" at some club would be criminally negligent in my opinion.

That said, it is also my opinion that the ADA, while well-intentioned, is a horrible piece of law. It's much too vague and subject to abuse in cases just like this. I don't know how to fix it, but I sure know it's broken!
 
Here's what we did. Our Garden Railroad Club had such a member. He is maybe in his mid-40's, IQ of 8, takes a bath once a year whether he needs to or not, State puts him up in a penthouse place by the water.

He came to my house to run several times. Screamed at folks. Hollered, Knocked entire trains off the high line to the rocks below.

Talked to a lawyer in the club.

We wrote a new bylaw, that anyone disruptive (no mention of any disability) can be banned from any members house if presented with a copy of the letter.
I did.
Haven't seen him in 10 years.

Somebody in your group must know a lawyer he can communicate with.
Get some legal advice for your area.
While banning him from the Church is the Church's problem, if you pay rent, it's like a house. I can ban anyone I want from my house.
In fact, legally, in our area, the cops hand out trespass letters, good for a year. You come back, you go to jail.

Somebody is pushing this.

Change your club days, keep the door locked, don't tell him when you meet.
He'll give up.

Dave
 
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