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tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Because Congress hinted at a possible bailout plan.....they'll be back down tomorrow.Baz said:
weewillie
Darth Vader
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tony barnhill said:
Tony don't assume that uaw workers only have high school or less education. I worked for Boeing and was a caw member for 25 years until I retired early (or else i would have been laid off before Boeing closed the Toronto facility). My pension is $1475 per month after taxes and that includes a bridge until I reach 65 when my OAP kicks in. I do get all my benefits except dental and I pay 35 cents for every prescription. By the way I am a qualified marine engineer who just didn't want to spend the all of his life at sea.
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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You've just made my point! No way shouls somebody who worked on an auto assembly line all their life have a pension that is anywhere near yours or mine...equity is what they want bt they've gone beyond that!
SilentUnicorn
Yoda
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tony barnhill said:
they actually deserve much more.
mark
prb51
Luke Skywalker
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What they deserve verses what is realistic is the point.
Ford is doing very well in its overseas units as it has reasonable/fair benefit packages for the workers there. Their investment in technology and research is much greater for it.
A soldier retiring after 30 years has less benefits than a GM auto worker.
If the US auto Industry does not reorganize then it/they will fail, if not now then in the near future unless we keep 'giving' them tax dollars to offset the inequality of the work force benefits.
Ford is doing very well in its overseas units as it has reasonable/fair benefit packages for the workers there. Their investment in technology and research is much greater for it.
A soldier retiring after 30 years has less benefits than a GM auto worker.
If the US auto Industry does not reorganize then it/they will fail, if not now then in the near future unless we keep 'giving' them tax dollars to offset the inequality of the work force benefits.
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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<span style="font-weight: bold">LONG RANT FOLLOWS...</span>
Let's see, my daughter told me when she graduated from high school that she had attended 8 different schools & that many churches! Her 3rd cousins who's dad was a UAW employee in Dayton (Jerri's 1st cousin) went to elementary, middle & high school in Dayton & attended the same church their mother had always attended - along with their extended family...they saw their grandparents at least every Sunday; my daughter saw her grandparents once or twice a year - & sometimes only once every 3 years!
Jerri explained, that in addition to my deployment for Desert Shield (I was in Vietnam before we got married) and the TDY's (temporary duties) she had suffered through - not knowing where I was or what danger I might be in - which were too numerous to count (I joined the Army in 1967 & retired in 1993 (you do the math!)), we had had 14 different duty stations - that's 14 different moves for my family - 5 before Shannon was even born or had turned 5 years old.....Jerri's 1st cousin worked in the same factory in Dayton from when he was 18 until he retired 30 years later at 47.
I was wounded once, fought in 2 different wars plus the 'black ops' that Doc will have to explain & have won medals for combat actions. Jerri's 1st cousin who was a UAW worker was employee of the 'whatever' several times! I have an undergraduate degree, 2 Masters Degrees and ABD (all my doctoral credits but my disertation) & numerous Army schools to include a year's worth of language school & a UN rating! Jerri's cousin had a high school degree and whatever courses he had to take as part of his job! (Since he's retired, he's gone back to school & has become a minister.)
Jerri moved so often that she couldn't advance in her chosen field - education - or many times she couldn't even get a job because many school districts wouldn't hire a military wife to teach because she could move in a year. Not until we retired could she enjoy her profession. Her 1st cousin's wife worked for the same firm (not a UAW shop) for the entire time they lived in her hometown & retired when Jerri's 1st cousin did..& still lives in the town in which she grew up!
Do you understand what I'm saying? No changes for UAW members' children or wives....no worry that a father or husband might be wounded or killed as part of his line of work. The same friends, church, clubs - never having to be the 'new kid' or the 'new wife' in the school or neighborhood - all their life!
I remember Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Desert Farewell (3 phases of the war) well...I was at Fort Campbell with the 101st Airborne as they were readying to deploy...I was one of those guys who were part of the planning from Ft Leavenworth who were going to war with a unit of who's plan we were intimately knowledgeable. Shannon was a freshman at Murray State University, about an hour or so from Ft. Campbell....on the night before we were to deploy, I drove up & took her & her roommate to dinner & spent the evening with them (at that point Jerri had not seen me for 45 days!).....when I got to Saudi Arabia & got my vehicle and classified phone, I called Jerri & Shannon to give them that number in case of a family emergency.....on the night President Bush told the Nation the war was beginning, Shannon called me from her sorority house to tell me the news...my answer to her was something like this, <span style="font-style: italic">"Shan, I'll have to call you back...we're in Iraq already & I'm in the middle of a little fight with a couple of tanks."</span>
During Desert Storm, Jerri's 1st cousin & her family were going about their normal routine!
When I first retired from the Army, my 'pension' was around $3200 per month...my medical was through Army insurance & the Blue Cross Jerri & I had in our new jobs as teachers...whatever part of our medical bill one insurance didn't cover, the other did...we had co-pays & co-pays for prescriptions. Jerri's 1st cousin continued his full medical coverage with no co-pays for anything! Jerri's 1st cousin's retirement check was $4,000 when he retired (& we've both gotten increases in our retirement over the years & his 'pension' is still more than mine!).
Now that I'm 62 & drawing Social Security, Jerri's cousin's Social Security check is the same as mine within a few dollars (as a maintenance foreman, he made $70,000 when he retired!)....when I reach 65, I have to choose a Medicare plan & will have $97 & change deducted from my Social Security check....Jerri's 1st cousin will continue his medical benefits as usual for the remainder of his life - he'll never switch to Medicare & never pay the Medicare fee! (& we don't even want to get into all my medical problems that the VA has said are directly related to my combat in Vietnam & Desert Storm!)
To add to it, in 2001 when I retired from teaching, the Army reached out & touched me for an average of 22 weeks a year, training & preparing units for deployment to Afghanistan & Irag....I did that until I turned 62...sometimes I was in the US, other times I was somewhere in the world (I'll leave it at that except to say I finally had to get a new passport because my old one has no place to stamp my travels!)....no increase in my retirement, just a salary & travel expenses! When Jerri's cousin retired, he went to school to become a minister and will never be required to go back into an auto manufacturing plant. And, even though I'm on Social Security, the Army still asks me occassionally if I'll forego my Social Security for a few months to help them out!
I'm not complaining about my career choice or retirement, nor are Jerri & Shannon...I'm just pointing out the inequities between UAW members' benefits/lifestyle & mine, as an Army officer, & my family's lifestyle....Jerri chose the Army because she chose me & I was already in it....Shannon had no choice - I was her dad.
You tell me why I don't have any compassion for union members who are retired! & why I don't think they deserve more than what they're already getting!
Sorry about the rant but this subject makes me angry....& I'm happy for Jerri's 1st cousin (heck, for all of Jerri's family members who were UAW members), but <span style="font-weight: bold">D@MN</span> - enough is enough!
Let's see, my daughter told me when she graduated from high school that she had attended 8 different schools & that many churches! Her 3rd cousins who's dad was a UAW employee in Dayton (Jerri's 1st cousin) went to elementary, middle & high school in Dayton & attended the same church their mother had always attended - along with their extended family...they saw their grandparents at least every Sunday; my daughter saw her grandparents once or twice a year - & sometimes only once every 3 years!
Jerri explained, that in addition to my deployment for Desert Shield (I was in Vietnam before we got married) and the TDY's (temporary duties) she had suffered through - not knowing where I was or what danger I might be in - which were too numerous to count (I joined the Army in 1967 & retired in 1993 (you do the math!)), we had had 14 different duty stations - that's 14 different moves for my family - 5 before Shannon was even born or had turned 5 years old.....Jerri's 1st cousin worked in the same factory in Dayton from when he was 18 until he retired 30 years later at 47.
I was wounded once, fought in 2 different wars plus the 'black ops' that Doc will have to explain & have won medals for combat actions. Jerri's 1st cousin who was a UAW worker was employee of the 'whatever' several times! I have an undergraduate degree, 2 Masters Degrees and ABD (all my doctoral credits but my disertation) & numerous Army schools to include a year's worth of language school & a UN rating! Jerri's cousin had a high school degree and whatever courses he had to take as part of his job! (Since he's retired, he's gone back to school & has become a minister.)
Jerri moved so often that she couldn't advance in her chosen field - education - or many times she couldn't even get a job because many school districts wouldn't hire a military wife to teach because she could move in a year. Not until we retired could she enjoy her profession. Her 1st cousin's wife worked for the same firm (not a UAW shop) for the entire time they lived in her hometown & retired when Jerri's 1st cousin did..& still lives in the town in which she grew up!
Do you understand what I'm saying? No changes for UAW members' children or wives....no worry that a father or husband might be wounded or killed as part of his line of work. The same friends, church, clubs - never having to be the 'new kid' or the 'new wife' in the school or neighborhood - all their life!
I remember Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Desert Farewell (3 phases of the war) well...I was at Fort Campbell with the 101st Airborne as they were readying to deploy...I was one of those guys who were part of the planning from Ft Leavenworth who were going to war with a unit of who's plan we were intimately knowledgeable. Shannon was a freshman at Murray State University, about an hour or so from Ft. Campbell....on the night before we were to deploy, I drove up & took her & her roommate to dinner & spent the evening with them (at that point Jerri had not seen me for 45 days!).....when I got to Saudi Arabia & got my vehicle and classified phone, I called Jerri & Shannon to give them that number in case of a family emergency.....on the night President Bush told the Nation the war was beginning, Shannon called me from her sorority house to tell me the news...my answer to her was something like this, <span style="font-style: italic">"Shan, I'll have to call you back...we're in Iraq already & I'm in the middle of a little fight with a couple of tanks."</span>
During Desert Storm, Jerri's 1st cousin & her family were going about their normal routine!
When I first retired from the Army, my 'pension' was around $3200 per month...my medical was through Army insurance & the Blue Cross Jerri & I had in our new jobs as teachers...whatever part of our medical bill one insurance didn't cover, the other did...we had co-pays & co-pays for prescriptions. Jerri's 1st cousin continued his full medical coverage with no co-pays for anything! Jerri's 1st cousin's retirement check was $4,000 when he retired (& we've both gotten increases in our retirement over the years & his 'pension' is still more than mine!).
Now that I'm 62 & drawing Social Security, Jerri's cousin's Social Security check is the same as mine within a few dollars (as a maintenance foreman, he made $70,000 when he retired!)....when I reach 65, I have to choose a Medicare plan & will have $97 & change deducted from my Social Security check....Jerri's 1st cousin will continue his medical benefits as usual for the remainder of his life - he'll never switch to Medicare & never pay the Medicare fee! (& we don't even want to get into all my medical problems that the VA has said are directly related to my combat in Vietnam & Desert Storm!)
To add to it, in 2001 when I retired from teaching, the Army reached out & touched me for an average of 22 weeks a year, training & preparing units for deployment to Afghanistan & Irag....I did that until I turned 62...sometimes I was in the US, other times I was somewhere in the world (I'll leave it at that except to say I finally had to get a new passport because my old one has no place to stamp my travels!)....no increase in my retirement, just a salary & travel expenses! When Jerri's cousin retired, he went to school to become a minister and will never be required to go back into an auto manufacturing plant. And, even though I'm on Social Security, the Army still asks me occassionally if I'll forego my Social Security for a few months to help them out!
I'm not complaining about my career choice or retirement, nor are Jerri & Shannon...I'm just pointing out the inequities between UAW members' benefits/lifestyle & mine, as an Army officer, & my family's lifestyle....Jerri chose the Army because she chose me & I was already in it....Shannon had no choice - I was her dad.
You tell me why I don't have any compassion for union members who are retired! & why I don't think they deserve more than what they're already getting!
Sorry about the rant but this subject makes me angry....& I'm happy for Jerri's 1st cousin (heck, for all of Jerri's family members who were UAW members), but <span style="font-weight: bold">D@MN</span> - enough is enough!
OP
RonMacPherson
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As a fellow veteran, I salute you. Your service to this country was admirable.
Now, for a little more angst building, research what a postal carrier earns after twenty-thirty years and what they get with retirement...
A letter carrier.....
Compared to what we are not paying our teachers, etc. I find it very disheartening...
Now, for a little more angst building, research what a postal carrier earns after twenty-thirty years and what they get with retirement...
A letter carrier.....
Compared to what we are not paying our teachers, etc. I find it very disheartening...
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Got to be real careful when we slice people into groups folks.
Union vs. military. Pretty vague, I'd say.
I was a teacher, unionized, for 30 years. Now retired at $1100/mo.
I don't think it's a great idea to bash union retirees - or anyone else for that matter - as a group. But I think someone just did. Labels sure make it easy to separate ourselves from others.
Tom
Union vs. military. Pretty vague, I'd say.
I was a teacher, unionized, for 30 years. Now retired at $1100/mo.
I don't think it's a great idea to bash union retirees - or anyone else for that matter - as a group. But I think someone just did. Labels sure make it easy to separate ourselves from others.
Tom
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Tom, yes, I did....& I've had the exact same conversation several times with Jerri's famiy members who retired & who were UAW members (an uncle & 3 cousins) & we always walked away friends, understanding the other's position a little better. I don't want to get into comparing different careers against one another but I think, in view of what's happening, that it's important for people to understand a little more about the union burden the Big Three carry & why the cost of vehicles they produce is so high!
If a UAW member doesn't fit into the category I just described, I apologize & didn't mean to characterize them in a general way - my tirade was specific to several family members and their retirement (& all of them have/had a better retirement plan than me!).
...& my thread was a way of explaining that any government bailout is a union bailout, not a bailout of the Big Three! But, the UAW president has said the UAW will make no concessions; that its not his union's fault - its the economy!
If a UAW member doesn't fit into the category I just described, I apologize & didn't mean to characterize them in a general way - my tirade was specific to several family members and their retirement (& all of them have/had a better retirement plan than me!).
...& my thread was a way of explaining that any government bailout is a union bailout, not a bailout of the Big Three! But, the UAW president has said the UAW will make no concessions; that its not his union's fault - its the economy!
OP
vagt6
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tony barnhill said:
I hate to say it, Tony, but that's an awfully truncated view of the financial problems that are facing the big 3 automakers. Pay and benefits are part of the equation, but by no means the central problem.
And, the central problem is very bad decision-making by management. Bad decisions on products is the key one. And spending untold tens of millions on lobbying Congress NOT to raise the CAFE standards, while producing boatloads of cars that get less than 20 MPG!!
The government bailout a UNION bailout?? Come on, man, that's just a bit over the top.
And, this horse (i.e., "I hate unions subject") is pretty dead anyway, no?
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vagt6 said:tony barnhill said:
I hate to say it, Tony, but that's an awfully truncated view of the financial problems that are facing the big 3 automakers. Pay and benefits are part of the equation, but by no means the central problem.
And, the central problem is very bad decision-making by management. Bad decisions on products is the key one. And spending untold tens of millions on lobbying Congress NOT to raise the CAFE standards, while producing boatloads of cars that get less than 20 MPG!!
The government bailout a UNION bailout?? Come on, man, that's just a bit over the top.
And, this horse (i.e., "I hate unions subject") is pretty dead anyway, no?
- and Amen!
OP
Deleted member 3577
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Fuel efficient Ford & GM cars are available...
Just not in north America.
https://74.125.47.132/search?q=cach...ine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051900550.html
Just not in north America.
https://74.125.47.132/search?q=cach...ine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051900550.html
TR6oldtimer
Darth Vader
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The "Big Three" are not as big as they once were. GM has about 22%, Ford 15%, and Chrysler 11% of the US market, and that share has been dropping steadily since 1996. The other auto makers, who are building cars in the US under the same rules are doing well, so something is wrong. Union bashing is not my intent, but when the unions flatly refuse to give concessions willingly, I say they need to get a rude awaking that their position will result in loss of jobs big time.
In my opinion, GM is way beyond saving. Their balance sheet has been in the red for two years now. Their last balance sheet showed net tangible assets of minus $58,040,000,000. When I listen to GM blaming, in part, the financial downturn as part of their problem, I want to punch them out. No one in their right mind would give, or make a no collateral loan to a company with a negative balance sheet, especially with their income continually in the red since 2005. Heck, no collateral loans is what got us into the housing crisis.
Labor has to make concessions now, or there will not be a company to bargain with. They can start with accepting changes in health care, and layoff pay, and job banks. No other industry I know of, including government, has this kind of no work benefit. The Congress and the State of Michigan also needs to understand that the Detroit automobile manufacturing model is dead as we have known it.
In my opinion, GM is way beyond saving. Their balance sheet has been in the red for two years now. Their last balance sheet showed net tangible assets of minus $58,040,000,000. When I listen to GM blaming, in part, the financial downturn as part of their problem, I want to punch them out. No one in their right mind would give, or make a no collateral loan to a company with a negative balance sheet, especially with their income continually in the red since 2005. Heck, no collateral loans is what got us into the housing crisis.
Labor has to make concessions now, or there will not be a company to bargain with. They can start with accepting changes in health care, and layoff pay, and job banks. No other industry I know of, including government, has this kind of no work benefit. The Congress and the State of Michigan also needs to understand that the Detroit automobile manufacturing model is dead as we have known it.
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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You're correct about it being truncated....there are 3 legs to the stool on which the Big Three are balancing....union, stupid management, wrong vehicles.vagt6 said:tony barnhill said:
I hate to say it, Tony, but that's an awfully truncated view of the financial problems that are facing the big 3 automakers. Pay and benefits are part of the equation, but by no means the central problem.
And, the central problem is very bad decision-making by management. Bad decisions on products is the key one. And spending untold tens of millions on lobbying Congress NOT to raise the CAFE standards, while producing boatloads of cars that get less than 20 MPG!!
The government bailout a UNION bailout?? Come on, man, that's just a bit over the top.
And, this horse (i.e., "I hate unions subject") is pretty dead anyway, no?
I can address each one but union goes directly to $2,000 per vehicle and has said they'll make no concessions to keep the companies afloat!.
Do I hate unions? No...only unions that over reach what is logical & fair based on the majority of the economy; and the stupid management that caves in to the union's demands because its cheaper (at the time) to do so than sit through a strike!
So, yes, this proposed bailout is a bailout of the UAW couched as a bailout of the Big Three!
SilentUnicorn
Yoda
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somebody needs to lock this thread..........it is WAY to tempting.
Mark
Mark
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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All 5 of the moderators are watching it....we want to see just how far our great friends can go without going over the line....& I've gotta admit it - as a moderator, I'm pushing the envelope!
But you guys are doing great!!
See we can have a discussion & even disagree vehomently without going to far!
But you guys are doing great!!
See we can have a discussion & even disagree vehomently without going to far!