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<span style="font-style: italic"> the president of the UAW stated, "We will not make any concessions. It's up to the government to correct the economic problems that are affecting auto sales." </span>
I'd imagine he wouldn't remain president of the UAW long if he said otherwise!
T.
I'd imagine he wouldn't remain president of the UAW long if he said otherwise!
T.
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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DITTO!!DrEntropy said:Thought the same when I saw the post count up to 120 and still no lock on the thread!
...amazing...
TheBoss said:
I've a sneakin' suspicion our opinions would be identical, sir. My tongue is bleeding as well.
Gray_Cat
Jedi Warrior
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That clown should have received a copy of the letter Drew referred to earlier about how tax payer dollars will be used to save union jobs. And, it isn't just the economy stupid, US auto maker car sales have been on the downslide for years, something to do with quality which the hands on staff has some control over.
Roy
Roy
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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The proposed bailout of the Big Three is really only a bailout of the UAW!
If GM does go into Chapter 11 bankruptcy, all that does is allow them to restructure...GM has 7,000 dealers! Toyota & Honda - between them - have less than 2,500!
How many lines of autos does GM have in the US? 7 (Chevrolet, Buick, Saturn, Pontiac, GM, Cadillac, Hummer) Why does GM need all 7 of theirs? Restructuring allows them to get rid of 3 or 4 divisions. How many US divisions does Toyota have? 3. How many for Honda? 2.
The Big Three are tied into the UAW & its huge labor cost! Toyota & Honda have labor costs that are almost half of the Big Three! Bankruptcy would allow the Big Three to renegotiate contracts with unions and suppliers, get rid of marginally profitable dealerships, and focus on restructuring to be more profitable.
Here's a few other things most people don't know about the UAW stranglehold on the Big Three:
1) The UAW Jobs Banks $400,000,000 annual program that keeps 12,000 workers on the payroll even though their jobs were done away with by automation...yep, the UAW didn't downsize when the Big Three found a better way to build cars, they demanded a "job bank" to keep the downsized workers on the payroll <span style="text-decoration: underline">doing nothing</span>! Here's a link about the program from the "Detroit News": https://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm
2) $17,000,000 that GM spends for Viagra annually for employees & retirees - not to mention how much Chrysler & Ford spend under their UAW contracts. https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/04/gm_viagra.html
3) The UAW's Big Three membership is down by about 40% since 2003, when the last national contract was finalized. At GM, the union had 250,000 members in 1994, but is down to about 75,000 members now. Yet, $1,600 of every GM car goes toward the healthcare cost of union workers - a figure that has steadily grown with each new union contract. At Toyota & Honda, that cost hovers around $1,000 per car!
4)
And, if the Big Three do go into bankruptcy, that does not mean all the auto manudacturing factories close & all the employees lose their jobs & all the dealerships & suppliers close....by & large, if the Big Three went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy we wouldn't see any major differences anywhere except for the few dealerships that would switch from GM lines to another manufacturer! No huge unemployment lines! No suppliers closing! No differences! If you'd like, I can explain why ther'd be no major changes anywhere.
However, if the bailout goes through, why would people suddenly start buying their products? Only 1 reason: tax credits! Yep, the Congress will tie tax credits for buying Big Three cars to any bail out. And they'll never tell us how much that costs us - they'll only tell us how much they want to give the Big Three.
If GM does go into Chapter 11 bankruptcy, all that does is allow them to restructure...GM has 7,000 dealers! Toyota & Honda - between them - have less than 2,500!
How many lines of autos does GM have in the US? 7 (Chevrolet, Buick, Saturn, Pontiac, GM, Cadillac, Hummer) Why does GM need all 7 of theirs? Restructuring allows them to get rid of 3 or 4 divisions. How many US divisions does Toyota have? 3. How many for Honda? 2.
The Big Three are tied into the UAW & its huge labor cost! Toyota & Honda have labor costs that are almost half of the Big Three! Bankruptcy would allow the Big Three to renegotiate contracts with unions and suppliers, get rid of marginally profitable dealerships, and focus on restructuring to be more profitable.
Here's a few other things most people don't know about the UAW stranglehold on the Big Three:
1) The UAW Jobs Banks $400,000,000 annual program that keeps 12,000 workers on the payroll even though their jobs were done away with by automation...yep, the UAW didn't downsize when the Big Three found a better way to build cars, they demanded a "job bank" to keep the downsized workers on the payroll <span style="text-decoration: underline">doing nothing</span>! Here's a link about the program from the "Detroit News": https://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm
2) $17,000,000 that GM spends for Viagra annually for employees & retirees - not to mention how much Chrysler & Ford spend under their UAW contracts. https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/04/gm_viagra.html
3) The UAW's Big Three membership is down by about 40% since 2003, when the last national contract was finalized. At GM, the union had 250,000 members in 1994, but is down to about 75,000 members now. Yet, $1,600 of every GM car goes toward the healthcare cost of union workers - a figure that has steadily grown with each new union contract. At Toyota & Honda, that cost hovers around $1,000 per car!
4)
https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081115/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_bailout_gettelfinger said:
And, if the Big Three do go into bankruptcy, that does not mean all the auto manudacturing factories close & all the employees lose their jobs & all the dealerships & suppliers close....by & large, if the Big Three went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy we wouldn't see any major differences anywhere except for the few dealerships that would switch from GM lines to another manufacturer! No huge unemployment lines! No suppliers closing! No differences! If you'd like, I can explain why ther'd be no major changes anywhere.
However, if the bailout goes through, why would people suddenly start buying their products? Only 1 reason: tax credits! Yep, the Congress will tie tax credits for buying Big Three cars to any bail out. And they'll never tell us how much that costs us - they'll only tell us how much they want to give the Big Three.
RobT
Jedi Warrior
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Well I'll dip my toe into this one....
Chapter 11 has a much larger impact on a car company than most other industries. When you buy a car, it is for 3 or 5 or more years, and you need the company to be there supplying parts and servicing it and honoring the warrantee. Certainly airlines have operated successfully under Chapter 11, but once you step off the airplane at the other end, your relationship with them is over. If GM or Ford or Chrysler goes into Chapter 11, it’s hard to believe they will sell too many cars.
On unions, just one observation - Germany's auto sector is heavily unionized but they make some of the best cars in the world (and have some of the most profitable car companies). The German unions are by no means weak - they have representation on the boards of these companies. And perhaps that is the difference - they have more of a role in working with management rather than against it.
The US car makers do make some right rubbish. Compared to the European brands (even the European Ford’s and GM owned companies) they are years behind in technology, quality is poor, and are ugly to boot. French cars may be rubbish too but at least they look good (mostly). And can anyone tell me why Chrysler is still in business? Do they still make cars any cars (or at least any that people would pay money for)? O.K. maybe Jeep, but that’s about it. Chrysler nearly drove MB over the edge, and should just be allowed to pass away quietly.
So what is the answer? Heck, I don’t know, but clearly there is over capacity that has to be got rid of, but Chapter 11 for all three seems unlikely to be the answer. I wonder if BMW or Toyota would be interested in picking up a few new brands?
Chapter 11 has a much larger impact on a car company than most other industries. When you buy a car, it is for 3 or 5 or more years, and you need the company to be there supplying parts and servicing it and honoring the warrantee. Certainly airlines have operated successfully under Chapter 11, but once you step off the airplane at the other end, your relationship with them is over. If GM or Ford or Chrysler goes into Chapter 11, it’s hard to believe they will sell too many cars.
On unions, just one observation - Germany's auto sector is heavily unionized but they make some of the best cars in the world (and have some of the most profitable car companies). The German unions are by no means weak - they have representation on the boards of these companies. And perhaps that is the difference - they have more of a role in working with management rather than against it.
The US car makers do make some right rubbish. Compared to the European brands (even the European Ford’s and GM owned companies) they are years behind in technology, quality is poor, and are ugly to boot. French cars may be rubbish too but at least they look good (mostly). And can anyone tell me why Chrysler is still in business? Do they still make cars any cars (or at least any that people would pay money for)? O.K. maybe Jeep, but that’s about it. Chrysler nearly drove MB over the edge, and should just be allowed to pass away quietly.
So what is the answer? Heck, I don’t know, but clearly there is over capacity that has to be got rid of, but Chapter 11 for all three seems unlikely to be the answer. I wonder if BMW or Toyota would be interested in picking up a few new brands?
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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RobT: That's the primary argument the UAW & some Congressmen have for not allowing GM to take Chapter 11. It's a bogus argument!
While there may be some personal trepidation about buying cars from an automaker in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, potential buyers need not worry about warranty & parts issues. We only need to look back to 2000 when GM first started talking about closing Oldsmobile. The Oldsmobile didn't disappear all at once; people knew back in 2000 that it was going to disappear but that action took 4 years but warranty and new parts for Oldsmobiles are still available today, 4 years later (and it took Ford a decade to completely kill the Edsel). People continued to buy Oldsmobiles from that 2000 announcement until 2004 when the last Oldsmobile came off the assembly line.
As a matter of fact, I believe the last Oldsmobiles built in April 2004 don't run out of warranty until 2009 (<span style="font-style: italic">"Every new GM car and truck registered in the USA is backed by GM with a new vehicle limited warranty, described below. In addition, every new Oldsmobile comes with the additional confi-dence of a 5-year, 60,000-mile General Motors Protection Plan."</span> https://www.oldsmobile.com/olds/warranty/index.html). So, there should be no angst about warranty/parts issues when purchasing a car from GM while they are in Chapter 11 - especially if the Federal government continues to purchase them for their massive fleet.
It took 4 years to kill Oldsmobile because they continued to manufacture Oldsmobiles so long as models were in their normal lifespan. Automakers use the lifespan of a model as one of the measures to determine whether or not it is viable to produce. GM won't go out of business so long as they have models that are still in their normal lifespan; they need that lifespan to run its length to recoup their R&D investment. (As a note: Studebaker went into receivership in 1933 yet continued to manufacture autos until 1966.) They'll eliminate some models to bring their lineup down to the few models that are profitable and have years left on their planned lifespan.
Automakers are also required to maintain a service system to handle warranty issues even after they stop manufacture of that car & they're required to maintain repair parts for 7 years after a vehicle has been discontinued....so, were GM to go out of business (which it won't), the manufacturer warranty would still be viable as would the supply of parts. Remember, GM wouldn't go out of business; its US-based organization might. But, GM's international operation is profitable and would continue to operate after GM dealerships disappeared from our landscape. And GM would keep its US-based warranty/parts organization open to support any models that were still under warranty. And to use as a springboard to return to US manufacture at some later date.
Oh, did you know Saturn has never made a profit? Saturn went into business in 1990 as GM's import fighter. And GM continues to throw money at it even though its' a "loss leader" because they still need something to compete with foreign products. However, Saturn sells fewer vehicles today with its full line-up of 7 models than when it began back in 1990 with just 1 model (S Series available in sedan, coupe and wagon)! And many of its latest models are 'badge engineered'; and we know what that means: Chevrolets clothed as Saturns!
While there may be some personal trepidation about buying cars from an automaker in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, potential buyers need not worry about warranty & parts issues. We only need to look back to 2000 when GM first started talking about closing Oldsmobile. The Oldsmobile didn't disappear all at once; people knew back in 2000 that it was going to disappear but that action took 4 years but warranty and new parts for Oldsmobiles are still available today, 4 years later (and it took Ford a decade to completely kill the Edsel). People continued to buy Oldsmobiles from that 2000 announcement until 2004 when the last Oldsmobile came off the assembly line.
As a matter of fact, I believe the last Oldsmobiles built in April 2004 don't run out of warranty until 2009 (<span style="font-style: italic">"Every new GM car and truck registered in the USA is backed by GM with a new vehicle limited warranty, described below. In addition, every new Oldsmobile comes with the additional confi-dence of a 5-year, 60,000-mile General Motors Protection Plan."</span> https://www.oldsmobile.com/olds/warranty/index.html). So, there should be no angst about warranty/parts issues when purchasing a car from GM while they are in Chapter 11 - especially if the Federal government continues to purchase them for their massive fleet.
It took 4 years to kill Oldsmobile because they continued to manufacture Oldsmobiles so long as models were in their normal lifespan. Automakers use the lifespan of a model as one of the measures to determine whether or not it is viable to produce. GM won't go out of business so long as they have models that are still in their normal lifespan; they need that lifespan to run its length to recoup their R&D investment. (As a note: Studebaker went into receivership in 1933 yet continued to manufacture autos until 1966.) They'll eliminate some models to bring their lineup down to the few models that are profitable and have years left on their planned lifespan.
Automakers are also required to maintain a service system to handle warranty issues even after they stop manufacture of that car & they're required to maintain repair parts for 7 years after a vehicle has been discontinued....so, were GM to go out of business (which it won't), the manufacturer warranty would still be viable as would the supply of parts. Remember, GM wouldn't go out of business; its US-based organization might. But, GM's international operation is profitable and would continue to operate after GM dealerships disappeared from our landscape. And GM would keep its US-based warranty/parts organization open to support any models that were still under warranty. And to use as a springboard to return to US manufacture at some later date.
Oh, did you know Saturn has never made a profit? Saturn went into business in 1990 as GM's import fighter. And GM continues to throw money at it even though its' a "loss leader" because they still need something to compete with foreign products. However, Saturn sells fewer vehicles today with its full line-up of 7 models than when it began back in 1990 with just 1 model (S Series available in sedan, coupe and wagon)! And many of its latest models are 'badge engineered'; and we know what that means: Chevrolets clothed as Saturns!
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tony barnhill said:
or Opels sold as Saturns I believe...
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Oh, the other argument some are using is that we might need their manufacturing potential to make tanks and other military equipment in the event we're in a protracted military action that requires us to ramp up our military beyond today's levels....& if they go out of business we'd be vulnerable...give me a break! The days of a WWII-type war are long over!
RobT
Jedi Warrior
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Tony - I think the comparison with Oldsmobile is not quite the same thing. Oldsmobile was not a seperate company from GM. With Olds, GM was retiring the "brand" - the cars themselves were built by General Motors, who were the parent entity responsible for the warentee and support etc. I seem to recall the last of the Oldsmobiles were just Chevy's with a different badge slaped on.
I think it might be right to argue though that much of the damage to the buying public's confidence these companies is already done, and Chapter 11 may not in fact be much worse. Just the news of the possibility that they may go under probably has new car customers running out of the showrooms and to their Toyota dealer. Sales at Chrysler, probably the most likely of the three to fail, seem to be suffering the most.
By coincidence I was at our local Chevy dealer today - had to pick up yet another replacement part for our Behmouth SUV (which is used for pulling a horse trailer as well as taking the kids to school). The showroom was devoid of customers, and the lot was chock full of unsold trucks and cars. Kind of sad really.
I think it might be right to argue though that much of the damage to the buying public's confidence these companies is already done, and Chapter 11 may not in fact be much worse. Just the news of the possibility that they may go under probably has new car customers running out of the showrooms and to their Toyota dealer. Sales at Chrysler, probably the most likely of the three to fail, seem to be suffering the most.
By coincidence I was at our local Chevy dealer today - had to pick up yet another replacement part for our Behmouth SUV (which is used for pulling a horse trailer as well as taking the kids to school). The showroom was devoid of customers, and the lot was chock full of unsold trucks and cars. Kind of sad really.
swift6
Yoda
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Brooklands said:
Some of them yes. I think Saturn has only 5 current models. The Astra, Aura, Outlook, Sky and Vue. The Astra is pure Opel. The Aura has some Opel engineering, was based on an Opel and predates the new Malibu. One could actually argue that the new Malibu is a badge engineered Saturn Aura. The Outlook is a Chevrolet traverse. The Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice are both based on the defunct Opel Speedster (The design work for the Sky was done n Coventry though). The current Vue, finally, is basically an Opel Antara. So you could say that 40% of Saturn's current line up is pure Opel, 40% is based on Opel engineering and the last 20% is badge engineered Chevrolet. Since Opel/Vauxhall are owned by GM you could still argue that its still all GM badge engineering. The original Vue's and Ion's were the last space-frame Saturn's but those should both be out of production. They probably still have some new/unsold ones available though.
The original SL1/SC1 with the SOHC engine and the stripped down option list would regularly return high 30's and even into the 40's mpg. The SL2/SC2 with the more powerful DOHC engines till showed solid mid 30's for mileage.
AweMan
Jedi Knight
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I keep hearing on the news how many jobs will be lost if the G.m. or Ford file chapter 7. Why not let them file chapter 11 like the airlines did? Most of them are still flying! Yea jobs were re-shuffled, Re-negotiated. And I suppose some were even lost but ..... it seems to me scare tactics are being used to guise the public into believing that if G.M. and Ford are let fail {Chapter 7 I suppose} the sky will fall and it most likely will! But what about chapter 11 like the airlines? Both companies could be re-structured, jobs re-aligned and re-negotiated
It seems to me that Someone or a bunch of someones don`t want chapter 11, they threaten chapter 7 or give up the money they want! It seems they think they have the upper hand here!
In my opinion IF the Government does anything it should force these company's into chapter 11 NO if and or buts! Then proceed to remove anyone {including Union members or management that balks, from the scene eg. can them and install new personnel that will cooperate through solvency.
I`m not against Unions ... but .... there has to be reasonable limits on both the union and the company`s part.
The airline industry Unions made concessions in order to keep their workers employed and so should the Auto workers Union.
Just my personal opinion here.
It seems to me that Someone or a bunch of someones don`t want chapter 11, they threaten chapter 7 or give up the money they want! It seems they think they have the upper hand here!
In my opinion IF the Government does anything it should force these company's into chapter 11 NO if and or buts! Then proceed to remove anyone {including Union members or management that balks, from the scene eg. can them and install new personnel that will cooperate through solvency.
I`m not against Unions ... but .... there has to be reasonable limits on both the union and the company`s part.
The airline industry Unions made concessions in order to keep their workers employed and so should the Auto workers Union.
Just my personal opinion here.
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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True; however, all the GM vehicles offered in the US that would disappear if GM-US went out of business would still have GM standing behind them because no way is GM going to allow its profitable international division go out of business (nor will it allow AC Delco to fall).RobT said:
Not really. Worst case, IMHO, is that GM would close all but 1 or 2 of their divisions and support all the other already sold vehicle lines from them. So, which 2 of GM's automaker divisions are the most viable?
Back in 1903, William Durant - a director of the Buick Motor Company, believed that the only way for the automobile companies to operate at a profit was to avoid the duplication that occurred when many firms manufactured the same product. So, General Motors Corporation was formed, bringing together Oldsmobile and Buick, and later joined by Cadillac and Oakland (renamed Pontiac). GM has forgotten that the specific reason they were formed was to reduce duplcation. And that absentmindness is part of what's brought GM to its present position.
But, GM will never go out of business - not GM as a corporate entity. Some of the US automaker portions of GM might possibly go by the wayside and the Oldsmobile example will be followed.
BINGO, Kerry! Because Chapter 11 automatically does away with present contracts and forces the UAW to negotiate from a weakened position! GM will never move away from the UAW but if they can reduce labor costs and salaries, they can become more profitable. Chapter 7 keeps the present UAW contracts in place.AweMan said:
Can we spell "somebody's in the UAW's back pocket"?
OP
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Will GM last 2 more months without chapter 11?
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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No! And it looks like the bailout is, thankfully, not gonna happen this year.WhatsThatNoise said:
So, Chapter 11 in eminent.
:thumbsup: