Rant....Ford & GM stupid

[Tinster]

That's real interesting about the steel Ray.
I thought Japan had taken over the steel industry
and that we imported most of our steel from them.

I was under the impression Japan bought all the scrap
steel we could send them.

d

 

[DrEntropy]

They buy all the "scrap" they can get their hands on across the planet! We were buying Mitsubishi cars made from smelted down US military gear left in Viet Nam a while ago. And parts of your Honda engine may have been forged from bits of a UH-1 in a former life...

Specialty Steel would include seamless nuke grade tubing, bearing stock, lots of Stainless and titanium mixes. The ~neat~ stuff!

 

[Silverghost]

And in a related theme, in the early 70's there was an organization called GASP in Pittsburgh, PA - Group Against Smog & Pollution. They lobbied against US Steel to clean up their processes, modernize the refineries and coke ovens, reduce emissions or risk having to close the steel mills. The response at the time was it would cost too much money to install scrubbers and improve and update processes and equipment. And besides, US Steel was too big a company to be concerned about such things. Look how that ended........

 

[DrEntropy]

I did a stint as a third generation Babcock & Wilcox mill rat (Q.C./NDT Inspector) in the mid and late '70's. The place had always been a "closed shop"... the writing was on the wall THEN. I bailed for Florida before it totally collapsed.

On a trip back "up there" a few years ago I drove thru Aliquippa to th' 'burgh... was shocked to see all the ~lack~ of industry along the river. Depressing.

But I s'pose the air was cleaner. :smirk:

 

[Tinster]

Yup, Harrisburg, PA and Baltimore, MD both
had huge steel mills. The profits were cleaned
out every year and the old technology and pollution
laws caused them to go out of business. No money
was available for upgrades to modern technology.

If that happens to the Big 3, blame it on poor management.
We need to quit rewarding screw up management companies.

Didn't that Enron CEO give himself a $100 million
bonus- 6 months before the company failed?

d

 

[tony barnhill]

If that happens to the Big 3, blame it on poor management.
We need to quit rewarding screw up management companies.

Yes, Dale, management bears the blame for some of the mistakes that have been made but you can't let the unions off scott free...they shoulder as much of the blame (if not more) as management. In the airline industry. In the steel industry. In the auto industry. Sorry, but that's the truth!

Here's an example of what unions have done to us:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Health care spending as a share of gross domestic product</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Source:</span> Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, 2000.

 

[DrEntropy]

The simple bottom line is: the gravy train has run out of gravy. Lethargic (or NO) reaction to changing markets, outdated methods of management and production, short-sighted greed on the part of ALL involved. We're now seeing the feeding frenzy at the TOP of the chain.

An old Thai proverb goes something like: "There is little to be gained in trying to help an elephant if it is falling down. But there may be some benefit in helping one trying to get up."

Get out from under and let 'em fall. There will be future opportunities. Nature don't like a vacuum... even in a "market sense". :wink:

 

[tony barnhill]

AMEN, Brother...

Ford will stay in business, and with a bit of clever leadership, so will Chrysler. Their dealers will survive, and some of the GM dealers will join the surviving companies. While suppliers will go through a rough patch if GM fails, surviving automakers will expand their businesses to fill the void GM leaves, taking the slack in the suppliers' reduced workload.

GM sells 20% of the vehicles sold in America. Today's depressed market is on pace to sell about 12 million vehicles a year in the US, which means GM sales of 2.4 million. That is about 10 new assembly plants the other manufacturers would need to build to replace lost GM vehicles. Every car plant in North America would have to run overtime to make up for the shutdown of GM plants. And where do you think they'll get the workers for those plants? But, they'll be hired as non-union workers!

Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina and Mississippi - and Georgia to come - are the states where foreign companies make their homes. These companies would probably expand and build new plants as fast as they could gather up land and excavators. Keep in mind, too, that when auto sales get off that 12 million bottom and return to a more normal 16 or 17 million a year, manufactures will need to produce an additional 4 or 5 million vehicles. With all non-union workers!

And if GM does fail in the US, it's quite possible that its foreign operations can continue and one day provide the money to restart GM's business in the States.

Oh, as far as retirees go, GM's pension fund is huge; retirees would get their retirement checks, and they would get Medicare like the rest of us instead of health benefits from a GM plan.

 

[mailbox]

Toyota buys GM (or parts of it)? Never thought I would EVER see the day GM go down the tube. Hey, I LIKE GM products. Just can't see a Toyota Corvette,Nissan Suburban, or a VW C10.

 

[Steve]

I have a theory: There have been rumours of Renault re-entering the US market. Could this now become a possibility, due to the problems that GM are facing now? Renault have small, fuelefficient vehicles on the road all over Europe, they have good quality, and a ready-made dealer network thanks to their partnership with Nissan...... Which also needs a boost, I believe?

Just an idea I have thrown up there, see if anyone takes a shot at it. :laugh:

 

[74WannaB]

I did a stint as a third generation Babcock & Wilcox mill rat (Q.C./NDT Inspector) in the mid and late '70's. The place had always been a "closed shop"... the writing was on the wall THEN. I bailed for Florida before it totally collapsed.

On a trip back "up there" a few years ago I drove thru Aliquippa to th' 'burgh... was shocked to see all the ~lack~ of industry along the river. Depressing.

But I s'pose the air was cleaner. :smirk:

How true. The old homestead works on the Mon river (one of the world's largest steel mills in its time) is now office complexes and strip malls. 30,000 employees in its heyday I'm told. And, yes the air is cleaner

 

[TRDejaVu]

Yes, Dale, management bears the blame for some of the mistakes that have been made but you can't let the unions off scott free...they shoulder as much of the blame (if not more) as management. In the airline industry. In the steel industry. In the auto industry. Sorry, but that's the truth!

Here's an example of what unions have done to us:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Health care spending as a share of gross domestic product</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Source:</span> Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, 2000.

Interesting comparison of the US compared to countries that have some form or other of socialized health care.

I have experienced the unions in 3 countries and 2 industries (airlines and construction). As an airline maintenance mechanic in a unionized environment I could prepare a hydraulic pump for removal, but then sometimes wait 30 minutes or more until an avionics guy could come and spend 5 seconds disconnecting the electrical connector (twist grip bayonet fitting). My experience of union leaders in other countries was that they were "frustrated politicians"; they knew they were un-electable on a public stage so they would try and have power in some other way. As to construction, just take a look at the NY City construction market; the amount of excess staff on job sites is way out of order. On the flip side I have also experienced incompetent short-sighted senior management and hope that I don't make the same mistakes or have the same lack of vision. With CEOs who see no wrong in company-paid $5,000 shower curtains or multi-million dollar bonuses for BS or even illegal performance, no wonder the working man is going to get what he can out of the system. In the Philly area there is currently uproar that a public television CEO is taking a $700K+ salary; that is a lot of PBS subscriptions being used just on him.

And don't even get me going on the professional sports teams...

 

[Silverghost]

With all these huge dollar amounts flying around, I say we somehow get Basil a piece so we can keep having BCF! :laugh:

 

[DrEntropy]

I read a thing recently suggesting THE BEST way to relieve the economy with the bail-out money in the amounts approved was to distribute it among US citizens of voting age... it would average $250,000 each, the income taxes generated from taking half back would prop the coffers and the citizenry could pay off most of their debt. Problem solved!

I liked it. :laugh:

 

[Deleted member 3577]

I'd just buy one of these...

WTH...It's a better investment than a lot of really 'smart people' made.

 

[roofman]

Where's my check?

 

[tony barnhill]

So, today in the paper, the president of the UAW stated, "We will not make any concessions. It's up to the government to correct the economic problems that are affecting auto sales." (basically)....

 

[Basil]

With all these huge dollar amounts flying around, I say we somehow get Basil a piece so we can keep having BCF! :laugh:

:wink:

 

[tony barnhill]

So, today in the paper, the president of the UAW stated, "We will not make any concessions. It's up to the government to correct the economic problems that are affecting auto sales." (basically)....

Oh brother do I EVER have an opinion....but I'd violate me own rules so I'll just bite my tongue off!

That's right! We're keeping this thread non-political!

 

[TRDejaVu]

119 responses to this one and we're still behaving ourselves. I guess that we can play nicely together when we try.