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tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Hnmmmm, just heard Charles Krauthammer say on TV that a bailout for GM is actually just a bailout for the auto unions since bankruptcy would let GM dump the union contracts.....in an article he wrote for "The Washington Post", he points to the airline industry which was allowed to go the bankruptcy avenue, dump their terrible union contracts & restructure for the future.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/13/AR2008111303348.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/13/AR2008111303348.html
Gray_Cat
Jedi Warrior
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The figure I see nowadays for the automotive bailout is 50 billion. I cannot see that going very far spread among the "Big 3" as they are burning though billions each month. Nothing else has changed internally, i.e. management, union issues, corruption, greed, lack of foresight; all the things that got them into their current situation. Seems like BK, restructure and then go forward by offering products Americans want may be the best alternative. The 50 billion is just a temporary bandaid as the auto manufacturers will be back wanting more without correcting current problems. Look at AIG - original bailout, 85 billion and they are currently into the fed for around 140-145 billion now. I'm not thrilled at the prospect of losing my job at 61 but it appears the government is just postponing the inevitable.
Roy
Roy
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I don't know anything about Senator Charles Grassley, but he has this to say about the bailout:
https://grassley.senate.gov/news/Article.cfm?customel_dataPageID_1502=18096
I don't know what party he's from, or what his record is like (nor do I care either way), but his letter to the CEOs seems to say some things that need to be said. I particularly like this paragraph:
<span style="font-style: italic">"However, should the federal government assist your company and other auto manufacturers who have failed to make sound business decisions, it’s important to remember that any funding you receive is money from the pockets of American taxpayers. Many men and women are pinching pennies just to get by, making sacrifices and changing their lifestyles to stay in their homes, send their children to school, and grow their retirement savings. I think it’s highly appropriate, if not absolutely necessary, that you do the same."</span>
https://grassley.senate.gov/news/Article.cfm?customel_dataPageID_1502=18096
I don't know what party he's from, or what his record is like (nor do I care either way), but his letter to the CEOs seems to say some things that need to be said. I particularly like this paragraph:
<span style="font-style: italic">"However, should the federal government assist your company and other auto manufacturers who have failed to make sound business decisions, it’s important to remember that any funding you receive is money from the pockets of American taxpayers. Many men and women are pinching pennies just to get by, making sacrifices and changing their lifestyles to stay in their homes, send their children to school, and grow their retirement savings. I think it’s highly appropriate, if not absolutely necessary, that you do the same."</span>
GeeBee1
Jedi Knight
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Well let me rant a little on a related topic.
The gas company here has been leaving notices on my door to put a shut off valve in the street outside of my house. They work 6am to 2pm. So I scheduled for them to come out yesterday at 12 (it takes a couple of hours and they need to turn off the gas inside. The turn is in one of my teants apartments that works late hours. I leave work at 11, go home, their is a very light rain. I call the supervisors cell at 12:30 and he is a few miles away in a coffee shop having coffee. We don't work in the rain I am told.
He is going to have to wait a good while before I reschedule.
The gas company here has been leaving notices on my door to put a shut off valve in the street outside of my house. They work 6am to 2pm. So I scheduled for them to come out yesterday at 12 (it takes a couple of hours and they need to turn off the gas inside. The turn is in one of my teants apartments that works late hours. I leave work at 11, go home, their is a very light rain. I call the supervisors cell at 12:30 and he is a few miles away in a coffee shop having coffee. We don't work in the rain I am told.
He is going to have to wait a good while before I reschedule.
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Jeez.....now the mayor of Philadelphia wants in on the bailout! He says Philly would pay the mpney back; Feds say there is no more....mayor's answer, <span style="font-style: italic">"Just print some."</span> I think that says it all!
Just print some more money!
Just print some more money!
coldplugs
Darth Vader
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tony barnhill said:
...as does much of their accounts payables balance. If they don't pay ~their~ suppliers, then those guys don't pay theirs. This means ~I~ don't get paid. I'd sort of like to be able to pay ~my~ bills, too. Is this greed in my part? (I hope not).
We've already had one outfit go belly up and leave us holding the bag. If GM goes down, they'll take a lot of folks with them.
From an intellectual/philosophical viewpoint I'd say let them crash & restructure but as a bottom-feeding supplier to the automotive industry I hate to be a forced contributor to that process. But - we reap the benefits of capitalism & I suppose we sometimes pay a price.
OP
Tinster
Guest
Guest
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The Big 3 should be allowed to sink to the bottom
of the ocean. No amount of cash bailout can keep
them afloat for very long. They are dinosaurs
and like fire breathing dragons will become history.
The Big 3 missed the boat with their huge, carbon eating
SUVs while India and China have been working on developing
new technologies and new designs.
The US auto industry will go the way of the US steel industry.
I'm tired of hearing everyone needing bailouts and then
giving their greedy, failed CEOs, etc. $millions in bonus.
just my opinion
d
of the ocean. No amount of cash bailout can keep
them afloat for very long. They are dinosaurs
and like fire breathing dragons will become history.
The Big 3 missed the boat with their huge, carbon eating
SUVs while India and China have been working on developing
new technologies and new designs.
The US auto industry will go the way of the US steel industry.
I'm tired of hearing everyone needing bailouts and then
giving their greedy, failed CEOs, etc. $millions in bonus.
just my opinion
d
Offline
This is a really interesting thread.
Ya know guys ... if the big 3 actually do dissolve ... I'd bet there will be a *lot* of experienced labor and suppliers really eager (and I do mean *eager*) to start from the ground up and actually design and build cars that people want.
And a lot of public and private entities will line up to help 'em get started.
Just my tuppence.
Tom
Ya know guys ... if the big 3 actually do dissolve ... I'd bet there will be a *lot* of experienced labor and suppliers really eager (and I do mean *eager*) to start from the ground up and actually design and build cars that people want.
And a lot of public and private entities will line up to help 'em get started.
Just my tuppence.
Tom
OP
Tinster
Guest
Guest
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NutmegCT said:
<span style="color: #990000">I certainly agree with you Tom but not limited to just autos.
I'm in construction and I've seen what it takes to build a $1 billion manufacturing
campus. A few thousand new construction jobs over an 8 year period and
then a few thousand permanant jobs in the plant.
How about we take $50 billion in bail out and build 50 new concept
manufacturing plants? Can you imagine how many total jobs that would create?</span>
Roger
Luke Skywalker
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This reminds me so much, though on a larger scale, of the decline, eventual collapse and to all intents and purposes, disappearance of the UK motor industry.
Unions, short-sighted management, Boards staying long past their prime, and cost-and-quality cutting measures, resulting in cars like the Austin Allegro or Morris Marina that were horrid, even if they had been well made. Then there was the Hillman Hunter and its Rootes kin, that were better made and might have challenged Ford and their Cortina if only Rootes had been managed by people who were actually alive, and not doddering nonagenarians (until Chrysler made them even worse, that it!)
All gone now. I'm sad about it, and though I know they got what they deserved, I don't know that the country did. And that's what makes it hard for government. The collapse of the US motor inductry, if indeed that's what happens, will have huge repercussions all along the supply chain and will severely impact the country's manufacturing capability - and not just in cars either.
Unions, short-sighted management, Boards staying long past their prime, and cost-and-quality cutting measures, resulting in cars like the Austin Allegro or Morris Marina that were horrid, even if they had been well made. Then there was the Hillman Hunter and its Rootes kin, that were better made and might have challenged Ford and their Cortina if only Rootes had been managed by people who were actually alive, and not doddering nonagenarians (until Chrysler made them even worse, that it!)
All gone now. I'm sad about it, and though I know they got what they deserved, I don't know that the country did. And that's what makes it hard for government. The collapse of the US motor inductry, if indeed that's what happens, will have huge repercussions all along the supply chain and will severely impact the country's manufacturing capability - and not just in cars either.
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Dale and Roger - totally agree.
I'm really unsophisticated about how all this works ... but if the loss of jobs can somehow be "eased" - it would be *great* if USA industry could think about the future instead of protecting its past.
A 21st century industrial (?) base and infrastructure, instead of unwanted products and crumbling highways (rails, airports, utilities, you name it). Man, what a future we, and our children, would all have.
T.
I'm really unsophisticated about how all this works ... but if the loss of jobs can somehow be "eased" - it would be *great* if USA industry could think about the future instead of protecting its past.
A 21st century industrial (?) base and infrastructure, instead of unwanted products and crumbling highways (rails, airports, utilities, you name it). Man, what a future we, and our children, would all have.
T.
roofman
Jedi Knight
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What is the most pofit GM/Ford/ or Chrysler has ever made in a year? Say they get $50 billion each, to pay back it would mean say $5 billion a year for 10 years. Could they EVER make enough profit to pay the money back? If they were lucky enough to do so, it would be all the profit they had.... Back in the day I think it only took a little over a billion to save Chrysler then.
OP
RonMacPherson
Guest
Guest
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Tinster, remember the first gas crunch back around 73-74 or so. The foreign cars got smart. Really started importing the fuel efficient cars. I remember Honda was really pushing the Civics and even came out with the Accord for the American Market. So Bill Smith, GM of GM got congress to pass a supplemental tariff on foreign imports, to "help" keep the American car companies afloat... Ok, so what happened. GM kept the same product line, just raised the prices of the cars.........
We are guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happines. Now that is expanding to include healthcare, guess some figure that should fall under life or pursuit of happiness.
Nowhere does it guarantee us the privilege of driving SUV's, Vacations in Vail, etc. That is all supposed to be earned....
When we start feeding, rather than teaching how to fish, we are starting a downhill slide escalation...
We are guaranteed the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happines. Now that is expanding to include healthcare, guess some figure that should fall under life or pursuit of happiness.
Nowhere does it guarantee us the privilege of driving SUV's, Vacations in Vail, etc. That is all supposed to be earned....
When we start feeding, rather than teaching how to fish, we are starting a downhill slide escalation...
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Careful - this has been a fun thread but we're beginning to tilt towards politics.....
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tony barnhill said:
Afraid we've already been there, Tony!
tony barnhill
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Nah, discussions of unions versus GM isn't politics...but I'll agree that we've definitely skirted the issue a time or two! I'm excited we've had this long of a thread discussing something potentially flammable without any name calling of party bashing!
TR6oldtimer
Darth Vader
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What a lot of us forget is failure is an integral part of capitalism. Many small business enterprises fail before the get it right. Large companies are no different. Once management and labor lock in the floor scale, work rules, etc, the company becomes a bloated dinosaur. Let the weak ones go into bankruptcy and see what shakes out. It worked for Global Crossing and the airlines, it will work for the big three. Difficult times mean difficult decisions.
Oh, did you know that US steel manufacturers produce 85% of the steel needed in the US and is an exporter of premium and exotic steel to other countries? How did our steel industries manage this? Well, for example, US steel, our largest steel producer took on the unions when they threatened a strike to keep plants open, the company locked the workers out, ultimately forcing concession from the unions, allowing the shut down plants, reduction in workforce, and move to high tech production techniques.
It can be done, it just take courage.
Oh, did you know that US steel manufacturers produce 85% of the steel needed in the US and is an exporter of premium and exotic steel to other countries? How did our steel industries manage this? Well, for example, US steel, our largest steel producer took on the unions when they threatened a strike to keep plants open, the company locked the workers out, ultimately forcing concession from the unions, allowing the shut down plants, reduction in workforce, and move to high tech production techniques.
It can be done, it just take courage.
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Ray: "failure is an integral part of capitalism".
Bravo.
Personal feeling: shoveling more support under the big 3 just prolongs the agony for us all.
The USA grew in dominance and affluence by letting the market make decisions. If an idea (corporation, invention, etc.) worked, it prospered. If not, it withered. If we struggle to keep failing ideas (corporations, inventions, etc.) on life support, we're stifling the very principle that made us great.
Use whatever powers we have left to support the institutions that we all rely on: financial systems, for example. We don't all rely on auto makers (or Circuit City, or whatever); help the workers, but let the failing models suffer the consequences they brought upon themselves.
T.
Bravo.
Personal feeling: shoveling more support under the big 3 just prolongs the agony for us all.
The USA grew in dominance and affluence by letting the market make decisions. If an idea (corporation, invention, etc.) worked, it prospered. If not, it withered. If we struggle to keep failing ideas (corporations, inventions, etc.) on life support, we're stifling the very principle that made us great.
Use whatever powers we have left to support the institutions that we all rely on: financial systems, for example. We don't all rely on auto makers (or Circuit City, or whatever); help the workers, but let the failing models suffer the consequences they brought upon themselves.
T.