• Hi Guest!
    You can help ensure that British Car Forum (BCF) continues to provide a great place to engage in the British car hobby! If you find BCF a beneficial community, please consider supporting our efforts with a subscription.
    There are some perks with a member upgrade!
    **Upgrade Now**
    (PS: Subscribers don't see this gawd-aweful banner
Tips
Tips

Rant....Ford & GM stupid

  • Thread starter Deleted member 3577
  • Start date

Share this page

The thing is Tony the gov't has to bail them out otherwise the unemployment rate will skyrocket and the gov't will have to pay those workers anyway, so they may as well be working. And when Chrysler had a bad time years ago the workers took pay cuts so the company could survive. None of these companies sell all the cars they make in a year anyway so why not just ease up production then there would only be some job losses instead of all the jobs lost if they close.
 
I work in a heavely unionized shop. What I have found is both union and management have a VERY hard time working together. BOTH are antagonistic toward each other and would do ANYTHING to cheese the other side off, even if it meant hurting the business in the process. I praise the union for the pay I receive, but some of the rules are just stupid. For instance, the P.O. is looking at removing Saturday delivery. This will save them a HUGE amount of money and could help SAVE some jobs in the process, but nooooooooo. The unions oppose this due to the fact that SOME members MIGHT miss SOME overtime. Just stupid. As far as letting US automakers fail, it would hurt in the short term, but I believe they COULD come back stronger than ever. $.02
grin.gif
 
During my working tenure I was a member of the International Association Machinists and aerospace workers Union. As a member and close friend of the three top ranking officials I helped to shape the bi-laws of our local. I watched in dismay, I might add, these same officials manipulate these Bi-laws to their advantage many many times. Some .... in fact most of those time had an adverse effect on me personally. So much so that when I was re-aligned to another facility because of closure of the facility where I was, I choose NOT to re-join ANY union. Luckily I was a D.O.D. employee or otherwise Im sure there would have dire consequences.
During my tenure as a union member I watched helplessly as the union local pulled worthless employees bacon out of the fire time and time again. Simply because Management in their attempt to release these employees didnt adhere strictly to the bi-laws. Even though the bad employees were caught red handed doing various dubious deeds they were in fact saved by the union.
My point is:
How can a shop operate in the black when they are forced to keep non productive, drunks, thiefs, and people that only come to work when they feel like it on the books?
<span style="font-weight: bold">NO im, not against unions, But I do think there has to be a happy medium between Management Employee Relations and these unions that works for both the good of the company and the well being of the productive employees as well.</span>
I am willing to say that of all of the cases our local fought against management better than 90% of them should have been lost and the offending employee terminated when in fact management was forced to accept re-employment.
Not only did it effect management but also demoralised the productive employees that absolutely knew how worthless the employees in question were.
To watch them backslide and worm their way out of work that other would have to take up the slack on was quite disgusting.
Yes my experience with the union in that local lodge left a pretty bitter taste in my mouth for sure.
 
weewillie said:
The thing is Tony the gov't has to bail them out otherwise the unemployment rate will skyrocket and the gov't will have to pay those workers anyway, so they may as well be working. And when Chrysler had a bad time years ago the workers took pay cuts so the company could survive.
Click to expand...
Yep, the Chrysler union saw the writing on the wall & helped out. Studebaker, on the other hand, had the same work force/union problems, wasn't bailed out by the gov't, & went out of business...our economy absorbed their employees without much of a slump (I wrote my MBA thesis on this exact subject - the workforce & unions in the auto industry).

We're going into a period where unemployment is going to rise...but, we've been living at full employment (5% or so unemployment means everybody who wants to work is working) for so long that we're shocked with any unemployment....GM won't fail - they may file for bankruptcy & have to restructure but that's not a bad thing...it could actually be good for everyone concerned.....the ripple effect throughout the entire auto industry may end up helping the American auto makers...I mean, look at Toyota & Honda - making cars & parts right here in the US, paying employees less salary & benefits & not hurting for workers....heck, VW is going to Chattanooga with a new plant & I'm betting it'll be non-union...another competitor for the Big Three.

Were I the gov't, as part of any bailout, I'd say the union contracts have to be dumped & immediately renegotiated to bring them in line with Toyota, Honda, VW, etc. before GM gets a dime.

Oh, I don't think we're in the realm of politics in this thread yet...but we've gotta watch it closely - ALL OF US, NOT JUST THOSE OF US WHO ARE MODERATORS.
 
:iagree:

Been there. Seen that.
 
tony barnhill said:
Were I the gov't, as part of any bailout, I'd say the union contracts have to be dumped & immediately renegotiated to bring them in line with Toyota, Honda, VW, etc. before GM gets a dime.
Click to expand...
I agree with you and I think the unions are smart enough to see that without that nobody will be working. I also think management has to be restructured so that the top guys do a little more work and not delegate it. :yesnod:
 
weewillie said:
tony barnhill said:
Were I the gov't, as part of any bailout, I'd say the union contracts have to be dumped & immediately renegotiated to bring them in line with Toyota, Honda, VW, etc. before GM gets a dime.
Click to expand...
I agree with you and I think the unions are smart enough to see that without that nobody will be working. I also think management has to be restructured so that the top guys do a little more work and not delegate it. :yesnod:
Click to expand...
No disagreement there, willie!
 
weewillie said:
is now a good time to buy shares?
Click to expand...

I'm aware that a number of financial advisors are directing folks to purchase select, blue chip stocks. I know a few folks who are doing this now.

Buy now?? Depends on your budget/wealth/ability. In general, probably not a bad idea to buy highly selected stocks that are paying dividends.

And of course, always take advice from faceless posters on the internet like me!! (NOT). :crazyeyes:
 
Why the bailouts? Why not let them fail?

I hate the ideas of bailouts....I hate the idea of what the failures would cause more

1) The big 3 go under.
2) Hundreds of thousands of people are immediately out of work.
3) 80+% of the suppliers go out of business.
4) Hundreds of thousands of more workers are out of work.
5) 80+% of the businesses dependent on the salaries of all of those workers go out of business. (businesses of every kind everywhere)
6) Millions of more workers are out of work.

But wait, there will still be car makers, and people needing cars, right? Yes, but:

7) Whatever manufacturers still exist cannot immediately (or even in 2 years) absorb any significant proportion of the out of work employees. They cannot expand that fast.
8) Competition is reduced, the supply of cars is reduced...prices go up.

....and on and on and on.
 
Or does all that happen?

When Studebaker folded here in the US & continued manufacturing for a few more years in Canada, many of their workforce retired, more moved to other parts of the auto industry and yet more retrained for new jobs....there are jobs in the future that we don't even know what they'll require for experience because they're still on the drawing boards.

GM retools from those gosh-awful SUV's into the Volt in 2010. It's designed to move Americans who drive less than 40 miles a day without a single gallon of gas! That lowers our dependancy on foreign oil.

The Chevrolet Equinox Fuel Cell car moves from a major (& successful test in NY, DC, & southern California) to the marketplace for taxi's and public transportation/government fleet vehicles. Again, absorbing employees & lowering our dependence on foreign oil.

Alaska starts construction of its natural gas pipeline through Canada to refineries (or whatever they're called) here in the States; that'll soak up lots of the auto industry workers who are laid off as aging US auto plants close. It also lowers our dependancy on foreign oil.

The trucking industry starts to move from diesel to natural gas; that'll soak up lots of the auto workers & lower our dependancy on foreign oil.

Combine GM & Chrysler & let the best remain & the worst fall by the wayside.

I'm a "glass is half full" type of guy. I don't see it as that huge a problem - we'll just have to retool our manufacturing thinking just like American consumers are retooling their purchasing philosophy right now.

It will have a major effect on the union though!
 
If there is no artificial "prop" it'll be just like water... seek its own level.

As soon as the lid comes off the cookie jar it's too late to put it back on.

If I make bad decisions, I pay. Doesn't matter if there are mitigating circumstances, I contracted to be responsible and the government is the LAST place I'd go for help.

...but I'm a dinosaur.

"Who IS John Galt?"

More to the point: ~WHERE~ is John Galt? :devilgrin: :smirk:
 
...I just KNOW this is gonna hurt....
 
You back in <span style="text-decoration: underline">Atlas Shrugged</span> again, Doc?
 
Okay, another personal experience. A couple of decades, actually three and a half decades ago, I was working at Lockheed Propulsion in Redlands, Cal. We made SRAM missiles and the boosters for the shuttle. Had to join a union to go to work there. No biggie, new adventure after getting out of the military and back from Europe as a Formula Three mechanic.


We "poured" our missiles motors. They were solid propellant that we poured into the casings, kind of a thick soup. When the pouring was complete the missile body would be ducttaped to a stand(kinda like a large hatstand) and "cooked" overnight while it was on a settling pedestal. Kinda like a big belt around the waist thing that you used to see cartoons of people in the gym. Only the belt was around the pedestal.

One night after we loaded a missile we were securing it to a stand and I noticed another missile that another crew had secured was coming unsecured. The tape was loose and it was starting to wobble unsecurely. Knew it was headed for falling if something wasn't done. So I grabbed my roll of duct tape and retaped it to its stand.

I got my "okole" reamed and a letter of reprimand in my employment record by the UNION SHOP STEWARD. Apparently I had stepped over the bounds of my union title and done a "no-no.

Well, my response to that was I had served four years in the Marine Corps(probably would have been more if I hadn't suffered the wound I had, and I darn SURE wasn't going to see over 300K of taxpayer money and part of our defense system go down the tubes, if it was in my power to EASILY correct the problem.

So I was transferred to a different division of Lockheed, had to drive out into the boonies everynight to the final assembly plant out in Bloomington.

Well, The senator from Utah, secured the contract for Morton-Thiokol from Lockheed and THEY started building the Shuttle boosters. A company that had NO experience with aerospace engines. Two years later the shuttle blew up...
 
The word of the day is Greed:

From the CEOs who continue to take monster salaries ($14m for Rick Wagner?!?) while their companies and their employee's livelihoods disappear

From the companies that couldn't keep their eyes on their jobs (building vehicles we want) and instead bought other companies (or paid $2b to not buy Fiat in GMs case) or found other ways to not plan for the future

From the unions who demanded unsustainable wages and benefits (jobs bank, anyone?)

From the investors, who only looked at the current profits, not the long term possibilties

From regular Americans, who bought what they couldn't afford with money they didn't have

My take is that no matter what happens, bailout or no, these jobs are already gone. The three major US manufactures no longer hold the market share they used to, and that share is not coming back. If consumers are buying fewer of your widgets, you need fewer folks around to build them. It's a sad truth, but unavoidable. Doc's right, this is going to hurt a lot.

You're not the only dinosaur, Doc. I'm still a young'un (ish) at 35, but I was raised to take responsibility for my actions -- can't take the Yankee work ethic out of me even with a move west. I have a hard time with sending my money, since that's what government money is, to folks who profited when times were good without thoughts for their future solvency.

The time for the strong medicine is now, whether we like it or not.
 
How long before Chery buys GM?

Will Ford be the American 'Morgan'?
 
In Danish Galt means angry, furious, crazy, insane, erroneous, incorrect!

However I think John Galt (who is my hero) would have let the car manufacturers fall on their faces. If not for the short-sighted management, then for the greedy unions and their supporters. (Over here the unions fortunately aren't so greedy.)

Then there will be:
1. a vacuum in the production of cars.
2. a surplus of workers
3. surplus production machinery.

It won't be long before a new breed is born, possibly smaller and more efficient cars and hopefully suitable for the world market.

John Galt wouldn't hold on to a dinosaur for sentimental reasons. If the management is corrupt and the workers are corrupt, get it out! and get the new in.
 
:iagree: & if GM does file for bankruptcy, the union contracts become null & void (& common stock becomes useless paper!) & they do get to start anew.

I think, even with a $30 or $40 billion bailout, they'll still go bankrupt! They just can't continue to operate with those union contracts & the exorbitant health care/retirement costs they have to pay.

Hey, I know....the union that just said it was through making concessions could bail GM out!!
 
Back
Top