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Pertronix issues

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wlivesey

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Hello everybody

I am at my wits end and hope I can get some help.

I have a 1960 BT7 which originally came stock with a positive ground. For all the years I owned the car (11 years), I assumed it was still positive ground. To make a long story short, I discovered my Healey had a neg ground after I bought my Pertronix parts (pos ground). So I switched the battery around and made the positive the ground. The only other thing I did was reverse the wires of my electric fuel pump - seems to be working.

My distributor is a DM6A. I bought a Pertronix ignitor for a DM6 (I did not see a listing for a DM6A in any vendors listings)to replace the points setup. It is a Ignitor Positive Ground LU-165P12. The coil is Flamethrower #40511, it replaces my Moss Sport Coil.

The instructions for the wiring seems clear and straightforward. I believe I have wired it right.

I connected the positive terminal on the Flametrower Coil to a ground. Per instructions, I connected the Ignitor B/W wire to the neg terminal of the coil. I connected the Black Ignitor wire to the White (hot)wire. The coil now only has 2 wires connected to it (as it should per the Pertronix instructions. My original Sport Coil had 3 wires connected.

The white wire with Black stripe is now not connected to anything. My wiring diagram says this wire connects to the kill switch next to the battery. Can I connect this to the coil positive??

Now here is the problem. The car cranks and I can keep it running (although rough) only if I keep my finger on the starter button. As soon as I take my finger off the starter button,it dies.

Any suggestions on how I might proceed? I thought I would query this forum before I am forced to go to someone who knows what they are doing.

Thanks
Bill L
 
Hi Bill,
Whenever you change the polarity of a generator, you have to
flash the field of the generator. You didn't mention that you did that ? If you didn't, your generator may still be making current with negative ground.
...
It is easy to flash the generator field.
If you have the battery connected with positive going to ground,
attach a wire to the big post of the starter solenoid that comes from the battery, and touch the wire momentarily to the field terminal of the generator. It will spark but won't hurt anything if you do it momentarily. I would do it three times.
Then remove the wire and reconnect the car wire that goes to the field terminal of the generator.
Now when you start the car the generator should be working in positive ground mode again. You can verify it with a meter but I suspect that it is wrong now and that is why the car won't run .
After you flash the field, the car will probably run as usual. ....Provided nothing else is wrong.
Ed
 
Bill--

Why not eliminate the B/W wire from the equation--it and the kill switch itself are constant problems to lots of people. If you want to keep things looking original the simply attach the B/W wire to the coil and cut it off neatly where the wire disappears into a loom, also cutting off the other end someplace near the cut-off switch.

As to why the car dies when you release the starter button I can only think that coil's hot lead is coming only from the starting circuit and not from ignition and that thus the coil is being energized only when the switch is being pushed.
 
Bill--

Why not eliminate the B/W wire from the equation--it and the kill switch itself are constant problems to lots of people. If you want to keep things looking original the simply attach the B/W wire to the coil and cut it off neatly where the wire disappears into a loom, also cutting off the other end someplace near the cut-off switch.

As to why the car dies when you release the starter button I can only think that coil's hot lead is coming only from the starting circuit and not from ignition and that thus the coil is being energized only when the switch is being pushed.
 
I've fried a couple of Pertronix' through carelessness. Couple experience-based hints:
1) check the label on the pickup unit - is it blistered? If so, the unit's fried.
2) Make sure the coil is not a Flamethrower II - Moss sent me one mistakenly when I ordered a Flamethrower. The II will fry the Pertronix.
3) Pertronix has info on their website about proper handling - read it. One of the ones I fried was by disconnecting spark plug wires one at a time for troubleshooting.
4) Don't leave the car more than a few seconds with the ignition on and the motor not running - this will fry the unit.
5) I second the posting re the black/white wire from the trunk cutoff switch - they can go out in such a way as to cause the car to run badly, then quit, or not run at all.
 
Steve--

All very good points (no pun intended).

It's actually not the black/white wire that creates the problem but the cutoff switch which provides some path to ground and so takes out the system. I replaced the cutoff switches in both my Healeys with a Hella marine unit which you can buy at West Marine or lots of places online. You can also purchase similar switches from various racing sites online such as Pegasus, etc.
 
Bill

I had an issue with the Pertronix I installed on my Pos Earth BN1, it seemed to be sending a signal that caused the electronic fuel pump to stop running. The motor would start and cut out off in less than a minute. Once it stopped running you would hear the fuel pump race to regain pressure.

Turned out that the fuel pump and ignition are on the same side of the A3 / A4 fuse. The Pertronix was causing a voltage interrupt that caused the fuel pump to stop. To remedy this I needed to change the prescribed wiring for the Pertronix, it took a while and a call into Jeff at Advanced Distributor to get this right.

Not sure if this is your issue but if the fuel pump is acting funny I hope the diagram helps….

Michael.
 

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Hi Michael,
I was advocating disconnecting the black/white wire as a way of troubleshooting the trunk switch. Thought I was being clear but oh, well.

If the car runs correctly with the wire disconnected, It's pretty likely to be the switch, not the wire.
 
Steve,

Agree, just wanted to document how I did the install with the Pos Earth.... like you I typically disconnect things as the first step of trouble shooting.


Michael.
 
Thanks guys for the help.
I did not flash the generater when I reversed the polarity so I will do that right away. I will also leave the B/W wire that comes from the kill switch disconnected. I also need to check that point that Jedi made about the fuel pump cutting out.

I am a little concerned I may have fried my ignitor. Steve indicated that the label would be blistered if it is fried - Is that the only way? Can I assume that the ignitor is OK if the car runs, even though I have to hold the started butten in to keep it running?

I will let you all know how things work out

Thanks again

Bill L
 
Bill,

The blistered-label thing was told to me at Pertronix' corporate offices by one of their engineers.

Based on my experience if the car runs at all, the unit's not fried. They either work or they don't.

You may have a wiring harness issue if you have to hold the start button down in order for the car to run. Refer to the wiring diagram to check the continuity from the ignition switch to the voltage regulator and from there to the coil. If necessary for troubleshooting, temporarily run a separate wire from the ignition switch to the coil.
 
Steve--

I think we are saying the same thing: The wire (as opposed to the switch)would only be the "problem" if it were going to ground somewhere along its path to the switch, but one it is attached to the switch then anything bad happening inside that old sealed up POC is going to cause lots of problems. I say get a modern switch if you think it is important to have one and in any case simply do away with the BW wire.
 
Ok, I think we have at least isolated the problem.

The problem remains that the car will run only if I keep my figure on the starter button. As soon as I take my figure off the button the car stops.

But I think a few issues have been eliminated:
1. The B/W wire from the kill switch does not seem to effect the problem whether it is connected to the pos ground of the coil or not
2. The fuel pump problem raised by Jeddi doesn't seem to be a problem. The car will run (although rough) as long as I keep my figure on the button, so I think it is getting gas.
3. I flashed the generator - resulted in no change
4. The ignitor is probably not fried - no blistering of the label and the car will run as described above.

Now does anyone have an idea how to fix the problem where the car dies as soon as I take my figure off the starter button

Thanks,

Bill l;
 
Bill--

I would send you back to my first response where I said:

"As to why the car dies when you release the starter button I can only think that coil's hot lead is coming only from the starting circuit and not from ignition and that thus the coil is being energized only when the switch is being pushed."

The ignition system needs constant power and it sounds like yours is being energized by the starting circuit--perhaps your wire is going to the starter button or to the solenoid post that is only made hot when the button is pushed?
 
If I read this correctly, the only thing keeping the engine turning over is the starter. My guess(es) are that the timing is way off--have you statically timed the engine? When I installed a Pertronix on my BJ8 the timing was off considerably, IIRC it barely ran--or didn't run--until I got the timing in the ballpark. Do you still need the small, flexible ground wire to the points base plate (don't recall)? If so, make sure it's not severed. Also, there may be enough difference between a DM6 and a DM6A distributor to cause problems.

Or, less likely, the fuel pump isn't working as well as you think. Why do you think the pump "seems to be working?"
 
Bill and Bob--

I think we need to find out more about Bill's car.

He says that it only runs when the starter button is bing pushed, and I don't know if he means that it is just hobbling along at a couple of revs or actually running. If the latter theand the issue is power supply source as I have been suggesting then the starter motor is going to kick out once revs get past a certain point so that is no good. If the former your suggestion about timing is a good one.

Just to eliminate all extraneous stuff AMAP I would disconnect the cut-out switch and B/W wire and verify if the car is positive or negative ground and wire the batt appropriately, then make sure that the ignition is being fed by a constant-hot source as opposed to an intermittent hot source such as off some soleoid post or the second post of the start button and see if that helps. Also same thing with Fuel Pump--make sure it is getting fed from proper source, not simply some post on the solenoid for example that is only hot when the button is held down.

Then rough set the timing and with the clamp loose and a friend there to sweep the disty back and forth while cranking see if it will fire and continue to fire.

I'd be interested in hearing Bill's experience with these steps.
 
Thanks for sticking with me on this guys!
Couple of responses:

- The coil is getting power when I turn the key (starter butten not pushed)

- And yes, Bob, the only thing that keeps the car running is when I have the butten pushed in. Also - it is running but very rough (hobling along as you say). I have not tried to set the timing. Sounds like a "to-do"

- My original point plate did have a ground. I do not have it grounded now - no mention of this in the instructions...Hmmm, sounds like I need to try gounding the plate

- DM6 vs DM6A - that may be a question for pertronix

- I think the fuel pump is working OK because even when the starter button is pushed and it is running, I am able to rev it up by giving it more gas

- Good Summary on your last post. I think I addressed most of the steps above - I will give it another go today. It is raining her in RI - good day to spend in the garage....

thanks
Bill
 
You can set the timing statically, but I'd be concerned about current passing through the Pertronix uninterrupted for more than a few seconds. If you have an assistant, have him/her keep the engine running whilst you turn the distributor to get the timing closer. IIRC, the distributor had to be turned clockwise--advancing the timing--to get my engine running OK. Then, set timing as usual (you do have an advance timing light, right? :wink:

If getting the timing close gets the engine running better--with the starter button pressed--then there's an electrical issue somewhere. As Michael noted, the starter Bendix will kick out when the flywheel begins to overrun it, so the starter itself won't be the issue. The starter will still be turning, however, and will (likely) still be trying to engage the flywheel, which could damage both.
 
wlivesey said:
Thanks for sticking with me on this guys!
Couple of responses:

- The coil is getting power when I turn the key (starter butten not pushed)

- And yes, Bob, the only thing that keeps the car running is when I have the butten pushed in. Also - it is running but very rough (hobling along as you say). I have not tried to set the timing. Sounds like a "to-do"

- My original point plate did have a ground. I do not have it grounded now - no mention of this in the instructions...Hmmm, sounds like I need to try gounding the plate

- DM6 vs DM6A - that may be a question for pertronix

- I think the fuel pump is working OK because even when the starter button is pushed and it is running, I am able to rev it up by giving it more gas

- Good Summary on your last post. I think I addressed most of the steps above - I will give it another go today. It is raining her in RI - good day to spend in the garage....

thanks
Bill
Click to expand...
Just a thought Bill...What did you do to the car before this started happening? Don' leave any thought overlooked. I think it's an electrical issue. Check not only voltage but also good current flow.
Patrick
 
Well I met my waterloo today.
The Coil was getting 12V when the starter butten was pushed or not pushe The solenoid was also geting 12V. I added the ground wire inside of the distributor. But today I couldn't even get the car started (it was arainy day)with the starter butten pushed in. I messed with the timing...

To make a long story short - I managed to cook the ignitor.

I am ready to go back to the points, but now I need a new ignition base plate (I had to cut the brass post that the points pivoted on). Maybe the problem was that the Ignitor was for a DM6 and my distributor was a DM6A. Who knows?

I emailed Jeff at Advanced Distributors to see if he has a ignition base plate

So thanks for everyonr trying to help me. I do appreciate it...

Bill L
cell 401-965 4544
Why do I love this car???????
 
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