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Opinion as to value, BJ8 barnfind.
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JodyFKerr
Jedi Knight
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I believe that is an egregious oversimplification. Now, I'll caveat what I'm about to say with the statement that I traditionally recommend that people buy a driver rather than a restoration project, simply because it's a heck of a lot easier for the average enthusiast.
Restorations are a factor of Time, Money and Skills. Not since my first restoration purchase have I ever lost money on one of my projects. The difficulty in this is being aware of what you're getting yourself in to, and that knowledge only comes from experience. So the average first timer gets themselves in *way* over their head.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Main factors:</span>
#1. Look over the car with a fine toothed comb. Bring someone smarter than you along for the ride and listen to them. Don't be afraid to be a pain in the ass.
#2. Understand that your skills are likely lacking, and honestly assess what you can and cannot do.
#3. Understand, based on #2 where your costs will be.
#4. Understand how much time you can realistically spend on the project, and what your rolling budget is.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Cost Breakdowns:</span>
#1. Cost of acquisition - how much is the vehicle.
#2. Cost of outside service - how much you're going to need to pay someone else. (for most folks this is a minimum of Machining, Body and Paint)
#3. Cost of parts - Assume that every consumable has to be replaced & the engine will be rebuilt.
#4. Cost of tools - This catches many by suprise.
If the sum of the 4 is greater than the cost of a driver, then the purchase doesn't necessarily make sense, unless that's the only way you'll ever afford the vehicle.
If doing this didn't make sense, I'd never have purchased a vintage car.
Restorations are a factor of Time, Money and Skills. Not since my first restoration purchase have I ever lost money on one of my projects. The difficulty in this is being aware of what you're getting yourself in to, and that knowledge only comes from experience. So the average first timer gets themselves in *way* over their head.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Main factors:</span>
#1. Look over the car with a fine toothed comb. Bring someone smarter than you along for the ride and listen to them. Don't be afraid to be a pain in the ass.
#2. Understand that your skills are likely lacking, and honestly assess what you can and cannot do.
#3. Understand, based on #2 where your costs will be.
#4. Understand how much time you can realistically spend on the project, and what your rolling budget is.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Cost Breakdowns:</span>
#1. Cost of acquisition - how much is the vehicle.
#2. Cost of outside service - how much you're going to need to pay someone else. (for most folks this is a minimum of Machining, Body and Paint)
#3. Cost of parts - Assume that every consumable has to be replaced & the engine will be rebuilt.
#4. Cost of tools - This catches many by suprise.
If the sum of the 4 is greater than the cost of a driver, then the purchase doesn't necessarily make sense, unless that's the only way you'll ever afford the vehicle.
If doing this didn't make sense, I'd never have purchased a vintage car.
Legal Bill
Jedi Knight
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JodyFKerr said:
Jody, this analysis is very good, but incomplete. What is the value of your own time? This is especially important if your goal is to sell the end result. You say you never lost money on a restoration, yet the value of your own time is not included.
I have heard many people say they do not count the value of their time and they give many reasons such as, "it is a hobby that I love" or, "I'd just be wasting my time on something else that has no value at all." Those arguments and motives are fine for those who really do love this as a hobby, or those who really, honestly, can't find anything else to do with their time that would not either make money or save money. But I think that is a small minority of the people interested in owning a Healey.
What one really needs to ask the uninitiated is, are you a person who wants to spend hundreds and even thousands of hours of your own time (which for the most part will not be reflected in the final value of the vehicle)to turn this thing into a real car? Even someone with the skills may not have much interest in what it takes to make the barnfind look as good as a decent driver just to save a few thousand dollars. Take the costs you have outlined above and add them up. Even if you do a lot of your own work, at best you will come out only a few thousand dollars under the cost of a good driver. The value of your time will be far less than minimum wage, and even maybe less than 0.
As someone who bought, repaired or refinished (or had it done at my expense) every single part of a BJ-8, I know it is not something I would want to go through again, even though I love the hobby. It is easily three to four times the effort of buying and building a good kit car like a Factory Five Cobra.
I think the real value of the barn find is in the parts.
JodyFKerr
Jedi Knight
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Legal Bill said:
Actually it's two additional costs that I glossed over. Time and Space.
In regards to time, it's not as simple of a measurement, because the time spent otherwise wouldn't be in the income garnering world (most likely). Instead it needs to be looked at as an opportunity cost. What are you giving up in order to spend time working on the car. For me, I am a builder. It's my nature. So, for me the opportunity cost is near 0 because there's little else I'd rather be doing with that time. However, if you value your time spent bowling as 100 and your time spent restoring as 50, then obviously you're losing out on the deal because you would really rather be bowling.
The point about how long a restoration really takes is a very good one.
The other cost is space. A non running vehicle takes up more space than a running one because it's partically disassembled, and spread all over the place. So I know I'm paying a part of my mortgage, property taxes, etc on an area of my garage that I can't use because there's a non-running car there. I'm very lucky in the fact that my wife doesn't care about parking her car in the garage otherwise I'd be in serious trouble.
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:lol: I know that story really well. My wife always tells anyone who will listen that my Healey gets to reside in the garage and her car has to stay outside (never mind that her car can't fit in the garage anyway).JodyFKerr said:.... I'm very lucky in the fact that my wife doesn't care about parking her car in the garage otherwise I'd be in serious trouble.
To add to the chorus, I started with a running, drivable car and it still cost more than I thought it would. But given a choice of restoring a Healey or doing gardening, I would do it all over again.
HealeyPassion
Jedi Warrior
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Well for my money Editor Reid netted it out the best, he said:
"To accurately estimate the cost of restoration, figure out the highest cost you can imagine that it would ever be - the worst-case scenario, then double that figure and you'll be getting close to the real cost. (Think I'm kidding?)"
I have used this methodolgy to estimate costs of projects and come extremely close to the actual project cost... however, generally still on the low side!!
Cheers,
Steve
https://stevesaustinhealey.com
"To accurately estimate the cost of restoration, figure out the highest cost you can imagine that it would ever be - the worst-case scenario, then double that figure and you'll be getting close to the real cost. (Think I'm kidding?)"
I have used this methodolgy to estimate costs of projects and come extremely close to the actual project cost... however, generally still on the low side!!
Cheers,
Steve
https://stevesaustinhealey.com
JodyFKerr
Jedi Knight
Offline
On the off chance that you're curious about checking your math. Try this calculator:
https://www.theymightberacing.com/Restoration/ProjectEstimator.aspx
in particular, look at the Estimated Total & Realistic Total.
https://www.theymightberacing.com/Restoration/ProjectEstimator.aspx
in particular, look at the Estimated Total & Realistic Total.
TomFromStLouis
Jedi Trainee
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With absolutely no car restoration experience to rely on, I would say this about valuing personal time in a restoration: The real reward of productive hobby time is more than "it filled hours of my life that I would likely have wasted." It is the accomplishment, the genuine achievement of something few are willing and able to do. Owning and driving something you built from an acre of parts has just got to be even better than driving a purchase. It would be like living in a house you built with your own hands.
I love owning and driving my purchase, but if I had actually restored it, I would be unbearably proud of it and of myself. It is a feeling that is only earned, and parting with a few dollars to have it for life is value for money compared to what most money gets used for.
Restoration is a key part of keeping these cars on the road. Nobody should attempt one with blinders on, but we should not act like it is exclusively an economic adventure.
I love owning and driving my purchase, but if I had actually restored it, I would be unbearably proud of it and of myself. It is a feeling that is only earned, and parting with a few dollars to have it for life is value for money compared to what most money gets used for.
Restoration is a key part of keeping these cars on the road. Nobody should attempt one with blinders on, but we should not act like it is exclusively an economic adventure.
Unfortunately, for most of the people I know, a full blown restoration is primarily, if not exclusively, an economic adventure. Some of my british car loving friends are capable of restoring cars completely by themselves. Others are capable of completing certain aspects of a full restoration, but not all components and others can't turn a screw! Obviously, for those who must farm out most or all of the work, cost is the critical factor. Even the automotive professional friends of mine who can completely restore a car themselves are concerned about the costs of the restoration and are wary of having way more into a car when it is done than they could get for it if they had to sell it.
The only full restoration I have done is on my Bugeye and I bought it as a stalled restoration project that the prior owner did not have the energy to finish. It had been completely disassembled and the body repaired and painted inside and out. I bought the body, complete with a pickup load of parts to put the car back together. Over the course of a year and a half or so, I put it together and refurbished every component before it was installed. I did everything myself, except the heavy lifting for which I called a friend to help. I must admit that I would not have been able to do the body and painting myself, so it was a positive that this was done when I bought the car. After it was all said and done, I had way more in the car than it was worth at the time, 1995. I was proud of my accomplishment,but would have looked pretty foolish had I lost my job or had unforseen medical bills and had to sell the car for half of what I had into it. By the way, I didn't "charge" anything for the hours and hours I spent doing the work. The one thing I learned from the experience, other than that a full restoration can be successfully undertaken and finished by a hobbyist, is that one is better off buying a car that is done, or a nice solid, original car than trying to restore one. Had I bought a good driver, I would have had an extra year and a half to drive it instead of putting it together. I have found I get more enjoyment out of driving an old car than working on it.
I think there are alot of other ways to experience the type of satisfaction that one gets from restoring a car. Buy an old piece of furniture or an old jukebox and restore it. It doesnt take up nearly the space or the cash and you will be just as proud of it and yourself when you are done.
The only full restoration I have done is on my Bugeye and I bought it as a stalled restoration project that the prior owner did not have the energy to finish. It had been completely disassembled and the body repaired and painted inside and out. I bought the body, complete with a pickup load of parts to put the car back together. Over the course of a year and a half or so, I put it together and refurbished every component before it was installed. I did everything myself, except the heavy lifting for which I called a friend to help. I must admit that I would not have been able to do the body and painting myself, so it was a positive that this was done when I bought the car. After it was all said and done, I had way more in the car than it was worth at the time, 1995. I was proud of my accomplishment,but would have looked pretty foolish had I lost my job or had unforseen medical bills and had to sell the car for half of what I had into it. By the way, I didn't "charge" anything for the hours and hours I spent doing the work. The one thing I learned from the experience, other than that a full restoration can be successfully undertaken and finished by a hobbyist, is that one is better off buying a car that is done, or a nice solid, original car than trying to restore one. Had I bought a good driver, I would have had an extra year and a half to drive it instead of putting it together. I have found I get more enjoyment out of driving an old car than working on it.
I think there are alot of other ways to experience the type of satisfaction that one gets from restoring a car. Buy an old piece of furniture or an old jukebox and restore it. It doesnt take up nearly the space or the cash and you will be just as proud of it and yourself when you are done.
What you spend your time and money doing is your choice. I have a friend that spends $100.00 + each Saturday on golf. At the end of 5 or so years all he has are memories of playing golf.
I enjoy auto restoration and have restored many cars in my lifetime. My TR6 restoration took 5 years to complete costing $11,000.00 for parts and paint. I completed that project in 1995. All labor was mine. That equates using 50 Saturdays per year or $44.00 each Saturday. At the conclusion I have a very nice TR6 to boast about.
My BJ7 was acquired in 2002. It was disassembled by the previous care taker after hurricane Hugo hit in Charleston, SC. A very large tree limb landed lengthwise across the BJ7 that needed restoration anyhow. The BJ7 has been apart for many years but always kept indoors. I have invested presently approximately $14,000.00 that includes a cost of the BJ7, Jule frame, body parts, and most trim and suspension items purchased while on sale from the normal vendors. I have not purchased paint or interior items for the body phase. For the mechanical phase I have the diff apart waiting for 354 gears from Lempert. I have not started the engine or transmission work. I estimate using present part prices another $10,000.00 to complete the BJ7 project.
If it takes another four years to complete the BJ7 and again using 50 Saturdays per year the cost will be approximately $35.00 each Saturday. The longer it takes to complete the better the cost per Saturday becomes!
Having stated the above, with my Saturday choice at the conclusion I will have two restored British cars spending much less than the $100.00 each Saturday and have more than memories to enjoy at the end. This logic also works for my wife to justify the restoration expense…
I enjoy auto restoration and have restored many cars in my lifetime. My TR6 restoration took 5 years to complete costing $11,000.00 for parts and paint. I completed that project in 1995. All labor was mine. That equates using 50 Saturdays per year or $44.00 each Saturday. At the conclusion I have a very nice TR6 to boast about.
My BJ7 was acquired in 2002. It was disassembled by the previous care taker after hurricane Hugo hit in Charleston, SC. A very large tree limb landed lengthwise across the BJ7 that needed restoration anyhow. The BJ7 has been apart for many years but always kept indoors. I have invested presently approximately $14,000.00 that includes a cost of the BJ7, Jule frame, body parts, and most trim and suspension items purchased while on sale from the normal vendors. I have not purchased paint or interior items for the body phase. For the mechanical phase I have the diff apart waiting for 354 gears from Lempert. I have not started the engine or transmission work. I estimate using present part prices another $10,000.00 to complete the BJ7 project.
If it takes another four years to complete the BJ7 and again using 50 Saturdays per year the cost will be approximately $35.00 each Saturday. The longer it takes to complete the better the cost per Saturday becomes!
Having stated the above, with my Saturday choice at the conclusion I will have two restored British cars spending much less than the $100.00 each Saturday and have more than memories to enjoy at the end. This logic also works for my wife to justify the restoration expense…
Superwrench
Jedi Trainee
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Man I'm screwed...I golf and am restoring a 62 BT-7 ! :eeek:
Legal Bill
Jedi Knight
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Many of you are confusing the value of a car with the value of your hobby. I don't think anyone here is begrudging anyone else the pleasure of restoring a car. But when you talk about the cash value of something, you are kidding yourself if you try to value the car with some sort of quantification of the restoration experience. Keep these issues seperate if you do not want to overpay for a barn find/basket case.
glemon
Yoda
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Wow, there is a lot to say about this, I would have to say that in my opinion it is not primarily an economic decision, if it was we would spend our time investing in stocks or whatever made the most rational economic sense. It is a hobby that, unlike many others (as I often tell my wife) leaves you with something of value at the end. The other factor to enter in here, depending on the part of the world you are in the deals on big Healeys may be few and far between, if you factor in your price range and desired model maybe even fewer and farther.
So you are stuck with buying what comes up, buying sight unseen (scary with an old car) or traveling to see it before you buy and paying shipping (or a one way ticket and a drive back if the car can be driven and you are the adventurous type) if you buy, further eating into the Healey dollars, so sometimes you buy what comes up local because the things just don't go up for sale that often (in some areas anyway).
So you are stuck with buying what comes up, buying sight unseen (scary with an old car) or traveling to see it before you buy and paying shipping (or a one way ticket and a drive back if the car can be driven and you are the adventurous type) if you buy, further eating into the Healey dollars, so sometimes you buy what comes up local because the things just don't go up for sale that often (in some areas anyway).
nevets
Jedi Knight
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Glemen...you are absolutely right about the total cost being way more than just the price of a car. I spent a lot of time and $$$ (including airfare) in search of a car worth buying. The process took many months. Then shipping, storing, maintaining, insurance, etc. I should have my head examined. Still from my wife's perspective, it's probably cheaper and better for my health than a mistress...
Well ...the way I look at a car , truck , boat , plane , ect. if you are getting it for resell to make a profit , then yes total cost is the main factor . If the item is for your enjoyment ( showing , driving , rebuilding , ect. ,whatever your pleasure maybe ) then it is your time and money and as long as you are " happy " with it , the cost does not matter .