TR2/3/3A ? on removing tr3 starter?

[Jim Lee]

I know that I have been here before and it was a struggle but I cannot remember what I need to do.
The problem is the top bolt of the starter. I can get to the front of the bolt and turn it without
too much trouble but all I can do is turn it round and round. There is obviously a nut behind it
that I have to get to keep it from turning. I am stumped at how I get to that backside of the bolt
to allow me to remove it. The best I could come up with was using a long screwdriver and stick
it down in what looks like the vicinity of the nut and get really lucky in being able to stop it from
turning. I would imagine that I need to figure out some way to get to this as reinstalling
the starter will be an even bigger problem. I will need to more than just get to the nut to stop it from
turning. Is it possible to even see this part of the bolt? If so I have not found it.

Thanks very much,
Jim Lee
Tr3a 1959

 

[TRTEL]

Jim, If you have a universal/swivel joint in your socket set, access the back one with a breaker bar and a couple of extensions so someone (your wife?) to hold it steady. Decades (4 or 5) ago Sears used to sell a curved box wrench with a 3" radius and a 9/16 on one end and which the shop I worked in had one.

 

[Geo Hahn]

I am just able to slip a slim open end wrench between the tunnel cover and the bulkhead -- this is working from inside the passenger side footwell -- to latch onto the nut.

Re-assembly is even more challenging and involves taping the nut to the wrench.

Some fit the bolt to that spot from behind to make it slightly easier.

Best improvement I've heard of is a helicoil in the hole in the bell housing making the nut unnecessary.

 

[TR3driver]

May vary by car, but I was able to slip a "tappet" wrench down there from inside the engine compartment and get it on the nut. Then I reinstalled by taping the nut to the wrench with masking tape.

Even so, it was a royal pain in the anatomy. The helicoil works slick! I originally installed it with the engine & transmission in place, but later re-did it while I had the transmission out. Sorry I don't have a good photo, but if you zoom way in, you can see it here

 

[Jim Lee]

The battle is o'er.

Thanks to all for their prompt assistance.
Putting back that top bolt was 99 percent of the job.
Tried all kinds of crazy nut holding stunts until I came up with a winner.
If you had described this technique to me I would have thought it ridiculous.

I sprayed 3m adhesive on my ring finger tip. Attached problematic nut to the same and
was actually able to use my nut carrying left hand to just barely, and I mean barely, place the
nut where it needed to go and use my right hands to turn the bolt. I also had to
remove the right air cleaner and the left fuel bowl to remove the old starter from the top.

Do not think for a minute that I did not try many, many variations of glues and long screwdrivers
and magnetic pickups for much of the day. What was bizarre about the primitive non-tool
technique described above was that it worked on my very first try. The stupidity I felt for not having
tried this a few hours sooner was outweighed by the elation of getting this done.

I guess this is why we write these things down.

Thanks very much,
Jim Lee

 

[CJD]

Aaaah...the old glue the nut to your finger technique! I prefer super glue for that one.

 

[DornTRoriginal]

I am considering adding the helicoil but I'm not thrilled with the idea of pulling out the transmission. Does the helicol have to be installed from the front or can it be placed on the backside? Or what if the helicoil is installed in the steel flange and not into the aluminum of the bell housing? Is it worth worrying about if I am installing a new high torque starter will the starter need to be removed again any time soon?

 

[TR3driver]

Dorn, I think that tip came from me originally. At least I did it before I heard of anyone else doing it, and I'm pleased with the results.

I originally installed the Helicoil with the transmission and engine both in the car, working from the front. The starter was out, of course, but as I recall I didn't even remove the rear carb for better access. It would probably be best to have some sort of guide to help get the tap started squarely in the hole, but I did mine "by eye" and it worked out for me. The hole is already large enough, no need to drill first. The tap of course cut threads into the (iron) cylinder block, but they won't hurt anything.

I wanted the threads to be in the aluminum transmission housing, because the starter mounting bolts also help anchor the tranny to the engine. Maybe that isn't important, but I've had that flange break off once and I know the factory beefed up that area several times over the years (one of the reasons I now have a later TR6 box in there was to get the extra beefy flange after breaking a TR4 tranny in a previous TR3A). Hmm, come to think of it, if you still have the early thin flange, there may not be enough "meat" there to hold the threads securely. Should be OK I think, but not certain.

Experiences will vary, obviously, but I've had to remove the starter several times even after switching to a gear-drive starter. Once was when I moved the transmission to my current TR3; again when I blew up the OD; and again when the bearings in the starter went bad. (Actual problem was probably just a loose connection, but I had the starter out and found the bad bearings before I realized the connection was loose.) Every time, I've been pleased to have those threads there. If I should need to change the transmission, I will be sure to put a Helicoil in the new one.

But, I plan to keep driving (and fixing) my TR3 as long as I can. If you don't plan to keep yours as long, or don't drive it much, your decision might well be different.

PS, even with the transmission out of the car, I would still run the tap in from the front. Having the curve of the bellhousing nearby when working from the back would make it harder to get the tap lined up properly, IMO.

 

[GerryL]

I originally installed the Helicoil with the transmission and engine both in the car, working from the front. The starter was out, of course, but as I recall I didn't even remove the rear carb for better access. It would probably be best to have some sort of guide to help get the tap started squarely in the hole, but I did mine "by eye" and it worked out for me. The hole is already large enough, no need to drill first. The tap of course cut threads into the (iron) cylinder block, but they won't hurt anything.

I wanted the threads to be in the aluminum transmission housing, because the starter mounting bolts also help anchor the tranny to the engine. Maybe that isn't important, but I've had that flange break off once and I know the factory beefed up that area several times over the years (one of the reasons I now have a later TR6 box in there was to get the extra beefy flange after breaking a TR4 tranny in a previous TR3A). Hmm, come to think of it, if you still have the early thin flange, there may not be enough "meat" there to hold the threads securely. Should be OK I think, but not certain.

Experiences will vary, obviously, but I've had to remove the starter several times even after switching to a gear-drive starter. Once was when I moved the transmission to my current TR3; again when I blew up the OD; and again when the bearings in the starter went bad. (Actual problem was probably just a loose connection, but I had the starter out and found the bad bearings before I realized the connection was loose.) Every time, I've been pleased to have those threads there. If I should need to change the transmission, I will be sure to put a Helicoil in the new one.

But, I plan to keep driving (and fixing) my TR3 as long as I can. If you don't plan to keep yours as long, or don't drive it much, your decision might well be different.

PS, even with the transmission out of the car, I would still run the tap in from the front. Having the curve of the bellhousing nearby when working from the back would make it harder to get the tap lined up properly, IMO.[/QUOTE]

 

[GerryL]

What would be negatives associated with welding a nut to the back of the flange for TR3 and TR4 transmissions which have the thinner flange?

 

[TomMull]

What would be negatives associated with welding a nut to the back of the flange for TR3 and TR4 transmissions which have the thinner flange?

My welding is very much amateur quality and I would shy away from this out of concern for heat damage to the flange. I know some of the pros claim they can TIG anything though.
Tom

 

[CJD]

And...a steel nut won't weld to the aluminum flange...

 

[TR3driver]

AFAIK it's pretty much impossible to weld steel to aluminum. So you'd need to find an aluminum nut, and a welder good enough to weld it in place. Not likely you could do that without removing the transmission from the car.

Personally, I'd try the Helicoil first. I would have done that even if I still had the thin flange, it just happened that I didn't.

 

[TomMull]

And...a steel nut won't weld to the aluminum flange...

Aluminum nuts are (and bolts) are relatively easy to com by. https://www.asmc.net/hex-nuts/#/?_=1&filter.material=Aluminum&page=1
I use them on boat masts.
Tom

 

[CJD]

You're right, I just wouldn't think of using one to hold the starter. It's more of an impact load, and aluminum doesn't tolerate that well. The helicoil would be a much better alternative, in my opinion.

 

[GerryL]

Sorry, in my earlier post I meant to specify the use of the epoxy JB WEld and not the welding process.

 

[Don Elliott]

I had my transmission tunnel out and cut a 1.5" diameter hole in it right where that nut goes. So if I have to do the starter again, I pull back the tunnel carpet, remove the rubber plug sealing the hole and voila - there is easy access that way.