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Oil Killing Our Cars

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K

karls59tr

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Anybody else read this article at https://www.englishautosociety.com . I saw the link on the VTR forum. How much of a concern is this? I'm in the process of breaking in a freshly rebuilt TR3 motor and wasnt aware that cam and lifters can be destroyed because the newer oils dont have as much molybedenum disulphide that they used to have! They recommend Castrol HD30 for the break in period (3000 mi.) then Castrol GTX 20W-50 after break in. I just used the castrol 20W-50 from start up with the special cam lube of course. Anybody know anything about these new oil developments? Karl
 
It's a real problem. From what I've read, it's the zinc that is being dropped from the motor oils, and without that, the flat tappet/cams that are in the TR engines are subject to premature wear.

Here is another thread that discusses this problem. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cryin.gif
 
Two additives can supplement the lack of zinc from what I've read:

use either at ~3oz per EVERY oil change (equates to .50-.66oz/qt of oil)

GM EOS p/n 1052367 - oil additive and break in lube - this was recommended by my local machine shop that also builds race engines. They say they add 1-15oz bottle for every new engine going out their door.

Valvoline SuperSyn Oil treatment or Engine treatment - the
oil treatment is supposed to be thicker. I just bought a 6 bottle lot on ebay.

I'm not an engineer, this is just from what I've read around the internet for flat tappet/solid lifter engines. Popular in both the VW and Corvette communities.
 
Castrol GTX 20w50, now with 3oz's of SuperSyn. In our modern cars, I use Mobil 1 5w30.

From what I read, it's the lack of ZDDP (Zinc) not Moly that's the biggest problem.
 
Anyone else out there useing the Lucas oil stabilizer. It has made a big difference in the engine in my Sprite. I am on the first oil change useing it in the Spitfire. I am running the Castrol 20-50 in both cars.
 
I spoke with a Lucas rep. several months ago concerning this subject. He said that yes, the oil stabilizer will help with this problem.
I also told him that I planned to use stabilizer as a lubricant while building an engine. He said they have had excellent results with it and have recently introduced a new lubricant specifically for assembly.
 
Lucas oil stabilizer does not contain zinc and does not state that it protects your cam or lifters. It foams the oil to increase the thickness of the oil (like STP) and helps prevent piston slap and oil leaks. Not saying it's bad stuff, but does not address the cam/lifter problem.

Read more here https://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
 
Shell Rotella, or Chevron for diesels. Either that or find some old oil that someone has stashed away somewhere. Stuff that has SH or earlier compountd.
 
Shell Rotella T was recommended in one of the links as was Castrol HD 30.....I think these have higher Zinc content. I believe it was mentioned that you use these oils for breaking in a new engine as it benefits the the cam and tappets....then after 3000 mi. you can switch back to Castrol GTX 20W-50. At that point it seems others add Valvoline SuperSyn oil treatment to the 20W/50. I wonder how the Rotella T and HD 30 are for hot weather summer driving???
 
Peter What oil would you go with if you were breaking in a newly rebuilt TR3 engine? I'm changing the oil on my 3. I've put a couple hundred miles on a fresh engine . I went with Castrol GTX 20W-50 but it seems that some of the diesel oils are supposed to be better for initial break in. Should I just go with GTX 20W-50 and SuperSYn for the rest of the breakin period???
 
Note in the first article listed by Karl that Redline still include the additives. Although their oil is expensive it is still widely available.
Note in the Hot Rod article they refer to Rotella with CI-4Plus. Most of what you find on the shelves now is CJ or something newer than the CI designations.
If you buy diesel oil check the designation. I believe the newer designations have less ZDDP that the CI-4 and CI-4 Plus.
My experience in trying to find Rotella with CI designations were as follows;
Wally World - No Rotella 15W-40 in CI, only the newer CJ or whatever the new designation is called. (One Wally World had a few 5 gallon buckets of 15W-40 in CI. Varies by store)
- some 30 in CI. Also some Delvac with CI
Auto Zone - No Rotella 15W-40, some 30W
Advanced Auto - Very little remaining Rotella 15W-40, in fact I bought the remaining stock at 3 stores which totalled 32 quarts. Some Rotella 30W. Also some other brands of Diesel oils with CI. I believe it was Castrol High Traction or something similar.
O'Rielly - No quarts of Rotella 15W-40 in CI but a couple of cases of 4 quart jugs. Some 30W.
Tractor Supply (the perfect choice?) No Rotella 15W-40.

My conclusion was to buy what I could find and stash it for the future. I hope oil in unopened containers does not degrade over time. BTW the Rotells cost around $2.70 per quart. Quite a bit less than Redline at $7 or $8 per quart.

As for the Lucas rep, he would probably tell you anything to sell product. It's the nature of a salesman.
 
Don't forget, any of the Racing formulations (Redline was already mentioned) including most synthetic racing formulations, still contain the full dose of ZDDP (no cats to worry about and VERY high valvetrain pressures).

The Hot Rod Article doesn't lay the full blame on oils. Rather it is a combination of things that all came together at the same time. However it does state: "The reduction first started in the mid-'80s, and it has been a gradual process, but the latest API SM and GF-4 specs have reduced ZDDP content to such an extent that the new oils may not provide adequate protection for older, flat-tappet-equipped vehicles running nonstock, performance cams and valvetrains." Leaving the reader to surmise that stock cam profiles and quality tappets will be okay... for a while at least. Depending upon the amounts of pressure that your stock profile cams, tappets, rockers and valve srpings all generate/see.

I wouldn't be suprised if some oil companies eventually come out with a 'Classic Series' of modern oils with a proper dose of ZDDP. Where instead of a disclaimer like Racing Oils have ('for off-road use') it will say 'for non-catalytic equipped classic cars'. They could just re-bottle the Racing formulation as a simple marketing exercise. Then they'll charge us an arm and a leg which we will probably happily pay.
 
Good diesel oils include Pennzoil Long-Life, Chevron Delo 400 and Mobil Delvac all readily available anywhere diesel trucks buy fuel. It's also available at Wal-Mart.

I prefer the Pennzoil and Delvac simply because I ran extended drain intervals on my big trucks and the Pennzoil and Delvac showed much less degradation over 50,000 miles than the Delo or Rotella.

In automotive use I doubt that there would be much difference.

The Hot Rod article was one of the first to take notice of this problem...since then MANY forums have discussed this problem at great lengths and, from what I can gather, EVERY flat tappet engine is at risk...modified or not. Even the local quickie lube has a notice on their bulletin board advising owners of older cars/trucks to use diesel oil in their engines...and they stock 10W30 diesel oil in bulk.

If the container sez 'GF-4' throw it away!
 
It's difficult for a non-scientest (me) to know just what to believe. The above sounds credible but so did all the dire warnings about using Silicone/DOT5 and Fram oil filters. I've used both for many years w/o a problem.

It's a fact that rubber brake components fail and that cam lobes (esp on some recent repros) fail -- whether these are due to changes in formulation, quality of replacement parts or random chance presenting anecdotal evidence is less clear to me.
 
Geo Hahn said:
It's difficult for a non-scientest (me) to know just what to believe. The above sounds credible but so did all the dire warnings about using Silicone/DOT5 and Fram oil filters. I've used both for many years w/o a problem.

It's a fact that rubber brake components fail and that cam lobes (esp on some recent repros) fail -- whether these are due to changes in formulation, quality of replacement parts or random chance presenting anecdotal evidence is less clear to me.
Click to expand...
George,

I've seen first hand the destruction of otherwise good parts from this new oil. I have friends who have recently wiped out cams and lifters and blamed it on the parts manufacturers when, in fact, the oil was responsible.

My friend who runs a hot rod biz and also does general repairs has replaced more camshafts in the last 18 months on his customers cars than he did the previous 10 years...but he still isn't convinced it's the oil..

My cam grinder of choice, Clay Smith, is well aware of the problem as are all of the other cam manufacturers in the country. Cheap 'brown box' lifters have also been a problem. I bought all of my Hemi camshaft parts from Clay Smith...George at Clay Smith was adamant about NOT running no-name lifters.
 
Good, I'm glad someone dug this article up. It is quite well written for the layperson. I had a BCCH meeting to go to after I posted and didn't get the chance to pull this up.

If anyone here is aware there is an organization called IATN, stands for International Automotive Technicians Network. I'm a member as was a line tech for better than 30 years.

On one of the forums a while back we had a very reputable forensic engineer discourse on the oils and antifreezes changes in the last 15 years and the effects they have on engines.

I see this happening in the field ALL THE TIME, as I am a mechanical breakdwon inspector. i.e. I travel around to different repair facilities and verify, often diagnose cause of failure and report on failures. Most common engine failure today is lack of lube. That can be mechanical failure(oil pump) or more often, low level and continued operation, often sludge and varnish formation(lack of proper oil changes) or in the high performance engines improper oil capability usage.

Shell Rotella and the Chevron delo oil I recommend are used by Diesel engine drivers. So it is designed for severe conditions, heat, load, etc. If you are not using an oil with zind diphosphate added(also another good place to get it is motorcycle oil, from a motorcycle shop, as they did not change their oil formulations to gratify the epa, you are gambling with how long your engine will last!
 
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