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New Tiger & Alpine?

rlance

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All


I would like you to post information on your sight asking the following question: "How much would Tiger and Alpine enthusiasts pay for a totally new Tiger or Alpine?" Totally original dimensions with improvement on deficiencies, either purchased as a kit (body shell only) or complete vehicle (choice of 260, 289, 302 w/a 4 or 5 speed).



I am trying to gauge the market potential before I make an investment in the venture.



Thank you.



R Lance
 
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vagt6

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Welcome to the fray, rlance.

In order to successfully market a "new" Alpine IV or V, and/or a Tiger, the price would most certainly need to be equal to or lower than a perfectly restored antique. Various price guides, eBay, etc. will provide indications of current retail market values. And if it's a Tiger MKII (289), it could be upwards of $100K.

How much do the "venture" folks who are planning to manufacture and sell the new Alpine/Tiger say they will charge for the car(s)? What's <span style="text-decoration: underline">their</span> suggested pricing?

If it's a new venture, certainly they have determined the pricing.

Let us know . . .
 

Tullamore

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The Sunbeams aren't very well known, although they are one of my favorite cars the value stays low due to it's obscurity.
 

Sownman

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Mixed emotions.

On the one hand it would be nice to see something other than Get Smart movies rekindle some interest.

On the other hand I'd hate to see something akin to Cobras with replica cars around. A new Tiger would need to be a new design as well.

I couldn't afford one because keeping my Tiger going and improving sucks up all the spare money I have.

Steve
 

MadRiver

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vagt6 said:
And if it's a Tiger MKII (289), it could be upwards of $100K.


Hi Mark:

I agree that the Mk II fetches a premium over the Mk 1, but I'm not sure that the market is that high for the 289, even before the current economic woes set in. When I bought my Mk I, I looked briefly at 289s, and passed several up because I recall they were $10k to $15k more than Mk Is in the same condition. Also, I've never warmed to the moderate face lift they gave the front of the 289.

Anyway, we love our Tiger -- an absolute blast to drive. Prices for everything seem soft (except Jags and Astons, alas), so if you find a reasonably priced cat, get it. You won't regret it!
 
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vagt6

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I didn't make it up. My $100K statement came directly from "Cars that matter" price guide, published by U.S. Appraisal, April, 2008:

<span style="font-weight: bold">1967 Tiger MKII (Ford 289 V8) Conv: $100,000 (concours cond).</span>

Straight from the horse's (or guidebook, in this case) mouth. The value may have changed a bit since last April, but not much I don't think.

$100K big ones, no kiddin'. :nonono:
 
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rlance

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My thought on the project is this: Sell as a shell (in primer), a rolling chasis (w or w/o specified motor/tranny) in primer or complete. In addition, would sell various panels.

Improvements on front suspension and unibody strength, cooling etc... would be addressed. I would like to copy what Beck has done for the 550 Spyder - vehicles produced would be registered as a 1965 or 66.

Price: That is why I am posting. I see Tigers going as high as $50-60,000.00 in perfect condition. I am looking for enthusiasts opinions and feedback. You would be the market, therefore your voice counts.


Question: How much would you be willing to pay?
Shell?
Rolloing Chasis?
Complete Vehicle?
Individual Parts (fenders, frame, floors etc..)?

Thanks for the help.

R
 

EricG

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Are you talking about a repro made of fiberglass or actual replacement parts made of steel? A well know Canadian Tiger restorer spent lots of money making repro metal panels (and very good ones at that) and quit making them as the market was not there for the price he had to charge for the high quality. I just don't see a market for a fiberglass Sunbeam car. For the money I think folks would just buy a Cobra kit from one of the dozens out there. Remember the Tiger was called the "Poor Man's Cobra". It still is and while the recent rise in prices is good for Tiger owners it is still way behind what these cars are worth. But that is my opinion. And there aren't too many $100,000 MKII's out there....yet.
 
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vagt6

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rlance, in Britain you'll encounter a lot of LBCs rebodied with "Heritage Body shells". I'm not sure who manufactures and sells these parts, but they're all over the place in England.

It may behoove you to contact the manufacturer or retail seller of these Heritage parts to learn a bit about their operation.

Does any know how Heritage body parts are produced? Or by whom?

I hope this helps, rlance.
 
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rlance

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Thank you everyone. I would really like to produce a quality steel car for the price of a new miata. Due to a low production # and having it registered as a 1965/66, emmissions would not be a great issue etc.. Additionally, I would like to produce quality replacement parts.
 

MikeP

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Tooling is going to be the big concern due to the high cost. And remember, there are differences in the shells from start to end of original production, how many of those would you want duplicate. The Heritage program works in my view because of 2 things, they're providing shells and parts for cars with much higher production numbers, and most of the original tools for stampings still existed. I recall reading at one point that they only needed to recreate about 15% of the dies. for the Alpine and Tiger, I would bet nothing still exists so you'd need to have good examples and reverse engineer all the individual dies for the internal and external bits. While you may be able to may some individual parts like rockers and floors I would suspect that the cost of even a bare shell would be more than all but the wealthiest of us would be willing to pay, much less a complete car or kit.
 
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vagt6

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It's the classic marketing conumdrum: you're trying to profit by selling relatively high priced, high quality items to a small market.

First, you'll need to accurately assess the potential demand for these parts, and you may find that there probaly isn't a significant pent-up demand for your product. This is chiefly because of the scarcity of Sunbeam cars.

Also, it's relatively expensive to reach your target market (i.e., Sunbeam enthusiasts). An effective marketing campaign would include a lot of air travel (e.g., attending car shows all over the nation/world) and a tons of advertising dollars spent in magazines, periodicals, club newsletters, etc. And effective ads are never cheap.

Let's do the math: if we calculate the total number of restorable Sunbeams in your target market (the U.S.?; Britain?; Canada?): it <span style="text-decoration: underline">must</span> be an insignifcant number of potential buyers from a business standpoint. Sunbeams Alpines and Tigers were not made in large numbers, and there are precious few left.

And if you're thinking about manufacturing an entire, new vehicle from scratch, especially in this horrible recessionary marketplace, well . . . It's difficult to imagine how anyone could possibly earn a profit from manufacturing and selling well-crafted Sunbeam body parts or "new" Sunbeam cars.

rlance, perhaps you might share some of your findings, surveys or stats regarding the potential market to help us see why you're so enthused about this Sunbeam idea?
 

glemon

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I am sure there would be a market but somewhat limited, people who want to reshell theire rusted out Tigers, or basically take a commission plate and make a new Tiger (hey people will do it) would probably be interested, but although not as plentiful as MGBs you can still get the relatively plentiful Alpine relatively cheaply, I know rust free ones are hard to find, but someone wanting to build a clone might go the Alpin route instead of a new shell.

The Heritage MGB shell certainly comes to mind, but lots more MGB rusted out hulks out there than Alpine rusted out hulks as donor cars.

As far as making a whole car, they tried refurbishing 240Zs a few years ago to a high standard and selling them at similar to new car prices (I think around $30,000) with limited succes, and that was through Datsun (Nissan dealers) I know what you were talking about is a whole different deal, but ventures like that are probably worth looking at in comparison
 

billspit

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Part of the problem with the Z car project was finding good cars to start with.

What does the MGB Heritage body cost now, about $9,000 I think. That should be a good benchmark. Also, a company in Poland makes new Cobra bodies out of aluminum in an "old MIG factory". Their cost escapes me, but the price of a raw body wasn't too bad. There were two levels of finish above that that really added to the price.

I'm not sure you would find enough buyers when you get down to it, but it's an interesting idea.
 

pmenhusen

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I anticipate that you will have difficulty achieving your goal of producing a vehicle that can be titled as a 1965 or 1966 in the US. I can only envision a couple possibilities, neither very likely:

You could come up with some period unissued MSO's (probably not in existence), then figure out a way that you could legally issue them (since Rootes history is exceedingly complex once the sale to Chrysler was achieved). In corresponding by email with a former Rootes employee, he stated that when production ceased, many documents were piled in the yard and burnt. I believed Shelby used period unissued MSO's with the "continuation" Cobras.

What is sometimes done is to take the VIN plate and title from a junker and put it onto your new creation. While this has the advantage of being easy, it is also illegal. End-users frequently get away with this as long as they don't try to sell their product. However, someone doing this as a business would be caught quickly. You would also have the difficulty of disposing of the scrap vehicle that no longer has a VIN, since salvage yards are supposed to get the title when they accept a vehicle.

Of course you could sell them for off-road use only, but that would dramatically limit the appeal.

What is done in our state for "builder" cars is that three bills of sale are obtained from three separate parties: one each for the frame, body, and engine. Then the state issues a VIN that a trooper attaches to your car, with the year on your title being the year that the state issued the VIN. This option isn't available on unibody cars.

What you are obviously trying to avoid is having to meet 2009 standards for crash safety, air bags, and emissions. The only way that I can see this happening is if you only sell bodies, and have the buyers supply their own frame and engine. Since I believe that the Tiger is a unibody design, there would be considerable engineering to redesign it into a body on frame car.

I would love to see your venture succeed, but your challenges are daunting.
 

zblu

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In the Mini forum there is mention of a remake of the Moke shell with some prices, gives one an idea of costs
 
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