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Hi folks-- I talked with a couple of body shops and painters and would like to get the group's opinion-- My Tr3 is about ready for paint. The one shop that was most willing to talk paints said that the enamel would hide the most sins but would not be as durable as the Poly + clearcoat-- but the poly would be "thinner" and will show every imperfection. I think I've done pretty well (and so do they) but shiny paint's a lot different than dull primer. Since I've done the prep work myself (which will be subject to public scrutiny) the idea of hiding scratches/impressions appeals to me. Enamel's also cheaper. I will likely drive the car about 1000 miles per year on nice, dry days and it will be garaged the rest of the time, so don't know if durability is a main issue. I'm not pretending to have a winning show car. On the other hand, I don't know about Polyurethane-- how much nicer and more durable it will be and how much the "thinness" will be an issue. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Any thoughts?
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New paint -- results [polyurethane or enamel]?
- Thread starter jayhawk
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Simon TR4a
Jedi Knight
Offline
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
I am soon going to face the same decision; I understand that base coat/clearcoat is the shiniest and most demanding in terms of preparation, enamel less durable and less resistant to stone chipping. Personally I feel the base/clear paints are too shiny and don't look right on a car from the 60's, and are more work to repair if scratched.
I believe you can get polyurethane paint (polyurethane enamel?) which is single stage, ie not a matte colour base with a shiny clear coat over it, but "all in one" like the older enamel, but tougher, shinier and more uv resistant.
I have not heard the comment about "thinness" before, most modern paints have less volatile organic compounds, ie solvent, and a higher percentage of solids (pigment) for environmental and cost reasons; I don't know if this makes them thicker, but would have guessed not thinner. I am rather uninformed on this!
I plan to speak to 3 or 4 painters whose work I have seen and get opinions, maybe some guys are more comfortable with certain types.
Experts in the field please help out, Jayhawk and I need your guidance!
Simon.
I am soon going to face the same decision; I understand that base coat/clearcoat is the shiniest and most demanding in terms of preparation, enamel less durable and less resistant to stone chipping. Personally I feel the base/clear paints are too shiny and don't look right on a car from the 60's, and are more work to repair if scratched.
I believe you can get polyurethane paint (polyurethane enamel?) which is single stage, ie not a matte colour base with a shiny clear coat over it, but "all in one" like the older enamel, but tougher, shinier and more uv resistant.
I have not heard the comment about "thinness" before, most modern paints have less volatile organic compounds, ie solvent, and a higher percentage of solids (pigment) for environmental and cost reasons; I don't know if this makes them thicker, but would have guessed not thinner. I am rather uninformed on this!
I plan to speak to 3 or 4 painters whose work I have seen and get opinions, maybe some guys are more comfortable with certain types.
Experts in the field please help out, Jayhawk and I need your guidance!
Simon.
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
I have been painting for 30+ years, yup I got opinions.
Please look at my pix in my auction"NO this is not a push to sell you something" #454552483 the pix of the car with a white bow on it. Thats urethane,and I will compete against B/C anyday, anywhere
I have been painting for 30+ years, yup I got opinions.
Please look at my pix in my auction"NO this is not a push to sell you something" #454552483 the pix of the car with a white bow on it. Thats urethane,and I will compete against B/C anyday, anywhere
dklawson
Yoda
Offline
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
I'm an amateur painter and I've used lacquer, 2-component enamels, and 2-component urethane. The painter's "thin" comment sounds like BS to me. In general light colors hide blemishes and dark colors show them. You're right, everything looks good in primer.
This is my take on the 2-component paints. I found it easier to touch-up or repair damaged enamel. However, I like the ability to buff the 2-component urethane within 24 hours of spraying. I have found that the urethane resists chipping better.
I've never sprayed with B/C systems. The 2-component urethanes I've used were single paint systems (DCC from PPG). I took the advice of my paint supplier though. He suggested that I put down the first two coats of the paint "normal". The third coat he recommended that I put down as a mix of 50% "normal" paint and 50% the compatible clear coat. This gave the top coat a lot of shine that could be wet sanded and buffed. The results were very good.
Will you be spraying this car yourself or having a painter do it? If doing it yourself, keep in mind that you'll need a breathing apparatus of some type as the 2-component paints are particularly nasty.
I'm an amateur painter and I've used lacquer, 2-component enamels, and 2-component urethane. The painter's "thin" comment sounds like BS to me. In general light colors hide blemishes and dark colors show them. You're right, everything looks good in primer.
This is my take on the 2-component paints. I found it easier to touch-up or repair damaged enamel. However, I like the ability to buff the 2-component urethane within 24 hours of spraying. I have found that the urethane resists chipping better.
I've never sprayed with B/C systems. The 2-component urethanes I've used were single paint systems (DCC from PPG). I took the advice of my paint supplier though. He suggested that I put down the first two coats of the paint "normal". The third coat he recommended that I put down as a mix of 50% "normal" paint and 50% the compatible clear coat. This gave the top coat a lot of shine that could be wet sanded and buffed. The results were very good.
Will you be spraying this car yourself or having a painter do it? If doing it yourself, keep in mind that you'll need a breathing apparatus of some type as the 2-component paints are particularly nasty.
PC
Obi Wan
Offline
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
As BOXoROCKS points out urethanes are enamels. Perhaps the shops you spoke with were talking about acrylic enamel vs. urethane enamel? Maybe they were comparing single-stage acrylics vs. urethane two-stage finishes? Or just single-stage vs. two-stage finishes? Unfortunately few shops are good at communicating these subtleties.
Being the cynic that I am I would suspect that a shop mentioning that urethanes "show every imperfection" doesn't know how to sand primer.
There are no absolutes but in vague general terms single-stage finishes are usually simpler to shoot and work but are more subject to sun fading. Two-stage finishes are usually a bit more involved to shoot, are much less subject to fading but are much more subject to swirls and minor scratches. Note; despite popular myth clear coats do oxidize just like solid colors, it's just not as visually obvious.
I've seen both done beautifully. I've seen both screwed up badly. Seek out a painter you can trust. Get references and find examples of their work to inspect.
PC.
As BOXoROCKS points out urethanes are enamels. Perhaps the shops you spoke with were talking about acrylic enamel vs. urethane enamel? Maybe they were comparing single-stage acrylics vs. urethane two-stage finishes? Or just single-stage vs. two-stage finishes? Unfortunately few shops are good at communicating these subtleties.
Being the cynic that I am I would suspect that a shop mentioning that urethanes "show every imperfection" doesn't know how to sand primer.
There are no absolutes but in vague general terms single-stage finishes are usually simpler to shoot and work but are more subject to sun fading. Two-stage finishes are usually a bit more involved to shoot, are much less subject to fading but are much more subject to swirls and minor scratches. Note; despite popular myth clear coats do oxidize just like solid colors, it's just not as visually obvious.
I've seen both done beautifully. I've seen both screwed up badly. Seek out a painter you can trust. Get references and find examples of their work to inspect.
PC.
Mark_Gibson
Jedi Trainee
Offline
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
My two cents. I am not a painter nor do i pretend to be. I just had my 1970 TR-6 painted (body off) and the guy I used did a beautiful job. He did the engine compartment, interior, and trunk in urethane enamel, and the outside of the car, door jambs, etc in base/clear. It is a much nicer finish than came out of the factory in Coventry! It all depends on how much you trust your painter to give you the right advice, and how much you want to spend. I'm planning on not having to do another paint job for a good many years. I have done all my own work on this resto except for the paint and body work, but good paint work is expensive. My total bill, excluding new sheet metal, was 8,100.00 dollars. I thought that was a fair price given the end result, and that did include all the labor to pull the body off, replace the drivers side floor, and reinstall the body. Good luck with you car; I'd love to see pictures once it is finished.
Mark
My two cents. I am not a painter nor do i pretend to be. I just had my 1970 TR-6 painted (body off) and the guy I used did a beautiful job. He did the engine compartment, interior, and trunk in urethane enamel, and the outside of the car, door jambs, etc in base/clear. It is a much nicer finish than came out of the factory in Coventry! It all depends on how much you trust your painter to give you the right advice, and how much you want to spend. I'm planning on not having to do another paint job for a good many years. I have done all my own work on this resto except for the paint and body work, but good paint work is expensive. My total bill, excluding new sheet metal, was 8,100.00 dollars. I thought that was a fair price given the end result, and that did include all the labor to pull the body off, replace the drivers side floor, and reinstall the body. Good luck with you car; I'd love to see pictures once it is finished.
Mark
G
Guest
Guest
Guest
Offline
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
Jayhawk, I have had lacquer on one TR6, 6 coats. An astonishingly beautiful paint, a pain in the ass to apply and sand and lots of upkeep. I have had acrylic enamel on another TR6. Road debris played havoc with the front of car. My latest paint is basecoat/clearcoat. The shine will in time wear down to a nice patina. I wax regularly and the car has never spent the night outdoors. I have a can of acrylic enamel that I use for the occasional rock
chip. Swirl marks from a rough polishing rag buff out easily with a power buffer and Zymol wax. My vote is base/clear.
Bill
Jayhawk, I have had lacquer on one TR6, 6 coats. An astonishingly beautiful paint, a pain in the ass to apply and sand and lots of upkeep. I have had acrylic enamel on another TR6. Road debris played havoc with the front of car. My latest paint is basecoat/clearcoat. The shine will in time wear down to a nice patina. I wax regularly and the car has never spent the night outdoors. I have a can of acrylic enamel that I use for the occasional rock
chip. Swirl marks from a rough polishing rag buff out easily with a power buffer and Zymol wax. My vote is base/clear.
Bill
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
Good input, as usual here. I definitely will be having the car painted-- I've tried my hand at painting and while I sorta like the idea of doing my own work, I've already sucked in my share of solvents, lead, mercury and the like, and don't have good mechanisms to control all the other variables that are involved in doing good painting. I believe you guys were right in that the options were some sort of regular enamel(acrylic wasn't specifically mentioned), vs mixed and 2 stage urethane + clear coat-- it's coming back to me. The painter said the mixed clearcoat/urethane sprayed together was the "thinnest". The 4 estimates varied greatly, not necessarily based on the paint type, from $2600 (independent shop) down to $600 (Bob's brother in law). Basically the charges included final prep to final cleaning.
Now that I know a little more (also been googlin' for paint info) I'll ask more questions. Still taking suggestions!
Good input, as usual here. I definitely will be having the car painted-- I've tried my hand at painting and while I sorta like the idea of doing my own work, I've already sucked in my share of solvents, lead, mercury and the like, and don't have good mechanisms to control all the other variables that are involved in doing good painting. I believe you guys were right in that the options were some sort of regular enamel(acrylic wasn't specifically mentioned), vs mixed and 2 stage urethane + clear coat-- it's coming back to me. The painter said the mixed clearcoat/urethane sprayed together was the "thinnest". The 4 estimates varied greatly, not necessarily based on the paint type, from $2600 (independent shop) down to $600 (Bob's brother in law). Basically the charges included final prep to final cleaning.
Now that I know a little more (also been googlin' for paint info) I'll ask more questions. Still taking suggestions!
Re: new paint results?
Well, I can add another hazard to doing your own body work-- Hairline cracks. I got a call from the body shop to come look at what happened after painting. While getting the car ready, I found several cracks in the old paint work and thought I had aggressively sanded and filled them-- sand, prime, sand, prime, 400 grit sand. As it turned out, the old paint from previous years still had minute hairline cracks that I never saw plus some of those I thought I had aggressively dealt with and removed, were still there. The car looked great and all the hail dents, scratches, rock chips, etc were gone but there were 5 areas where the new paint separated while drying. Now more time, more money. I guess I learned a lesson here.
Well, I can add another hazard to doing your own body work-- Hairline cracks. I got a call from the body shop to come look at what happened after painting. While getting the car ready, I found several cracks in the old paint work and thought I had aggressively sanded and filled them-- sand, prime, sand, prime, 400 grit sand. As it turned out, the old paint from previous years still had minute hairline cracks that I never saw plus some of those I thought I had aggressively dealt with and removed, were still there. The car looked great and all the hail dents, scratches, rock chips, etc were gone but there were 5 areas where the new paint separated while drying. Now more time, more money. I guess I learned a lesson here.
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
As a pro in this field I love the ureathane enamels(single stage colors) However I have been assured by the paint reps that the base clears are more dureable in the long run as there is more UV protection to prevent fading. So if you car must be out doors a bunch maybe the single stage is not quite right for you.We use Spies Hecker at the shop and its great, but you should be very carefull if you try to have the best of both worlds with a clearcoated single-stage paint. This can work but will sometimes blister as the clearcoats cure ruining the whole thing.
And you wondered why painters are all nuts!!!
MD(mad dog)
As a pro in this field I love the ureathane enamels(single stage colors) However I have been assured by the paint reps that the base clears are more dureable in the long run as there is more UV protection to prevent fading. So if you car must be out doors a bunch maybe the single stage is not quite right for you.We use Spies Hecker at the shop and its great, but you should be very carefull if you try to have the best of both worlds with a clearcoated single-stage paint. This can work but will sometimes blister as the clearcoats cure ruining the whole thing.
And you wondered why painters are all nuts!!!
MD(mad dog)
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
I vote for single stage, which is what my paint guy sprayed on my 4A after a lot of to-and-fro. It looks right on these cars -- clear coat is way too glossy in my opinion, for emulating the original finish. And if the only problem with your paint is "checking", keep it and don't repaint. No paint man can spray character!
I vote for single stage, which is what my paint guy sprayed on my 4A after a lot of to-and-fro. It looks right on these cars -- clear coat is way too glossy in my opinion, for emulating the original finish. And if the only problem with your paint is "checking", keep it and don't repaint. No paint man can spray character!
D
DougF
Guest
Guest
Offline
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
If you are concerned about hiding imperfections in the paint, Take an old t-shirt, putting one layer between your hand and the car surface and start feeling your body work. I used my left hand as being right handed, I found that the feeling isn't as acute in the right hand.
I was amazed at how much more I was able to find.
Fix those imperfections before you paint. Over time they will only show up more.
As for paint, I used a one step urethane. Next time I will use two step. The one step was easy to work with and the shine excellent. But the protection factor from the sun in a two step I feel is worth the extra work.
Personally, I will never paint again with acrylic enamel.
If you are concerned about hiding imperfections in the paint, Take an old t-shirt, putting one layer between your hand and the car surface and start feeling your body work. I used my left hand as being right handed, I found that the feeling isn't as acute in the right hand.
I was amazed at how much more I was able to find.
Fix those imperfections before you paint. Over time they will only show up more.
As for paint, I used a one step urethane. Next time I will use two step. The one step was easy to work with and the shine excellent. But the protection factor from the sun in a two step I feel is worth the extra work.
Personally, I will never paint again with acrylic enamel.
bobh
Jedi Warrior
Offline
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
I vote for polyurethane. Two of our base/clear cars have peeling clear coat. Look around when you're driving. You will see plenty of cars that are losing their clear coat. Check out the paint on the 18 wheelers. Many of them are painted in poly. Imron is an industrial poly that last a long time. It's spec'd for painting water towers. Even though it's an industrial paint it still has a wet look to the shine. Not cheap, but worth it in my opinion.
I vote for polyurethane. Two of our base/clear cars have peeling clear coat. Look around when you're driving. You will see plenty of cars that are losing their clear coat. Check out the paint on the 18 wheelers. Many of them are painted in poly. Imron is an industrial poly that last a long time. It's spec'd for painting water towers. Even though it's an industrial paint it still has a wet look to the shine. Not cheap, but worth it in my opinion.
trfourtune
Jedi Knight
Offline
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
i might as well add my 2-cents worth,
PC is correct. eurethane enamel,acrylic enamel,base coat clear coat systems,laquer. many choices and systems out there.
first:
PAINT DOES NOT, REPEAT, DOES NOT, HIDE IMPERFECTIONS OR SCRATCHES!!!!
second:
that out of the way, your final sanding prior to paint should be MINIMUM 800 grit. 1200 grit better. of coarse you build down to this ie, 280,320,400,600,800,1200 IMHO.
third:
you have to decide on the look of the paint you want. if you want that deep wet water look and longevity is not the issue, then many,many coats of laquer with wet sanding between coats is hard to beat(this is a $10,000.00 + paint job minimum).this can go to $50,000.00 if you like.
next in line i would say a good base coat clear coat system. fairly wet looking paint job, has some depth. i believe this can be acrylic or eurethane. this is what most shops do and are set up for. the shop will usually have a particular system they use and are familiar with.
the last but not least is the single coat system. this can be acrylic or poly. it can also have clear sprayed over it as well. a one coat poly that is post sanded and buffed is what i consider the most authentic period paint job for older cars (1950's,1960's). beautiful, but the colour is at the surface. it does not have that deep (or as deep), wet look that base-clear or 20 coats of laquer give.
all these systems are mixed with hardener (isocianates-toxic) and reducer, unless it it cheap junk.
fourth:
paint quality.
all the big paint manufacturers have lines of paint that are "economical" to "best" quality. you get what you pay for. look at the ppg,sikkens,dupont etc web sites to see how many systems each one makes. it will make your head swim.
maaco,and other budget paint places etc use the cheapest,cheapest, materials there are.i won't say any more there.
they all look good when first done, with proper prep of coarse.
eurethane is the toughest. not the easiest to spray i understand and more expensive.probably the longest lasting as well. acrylic enamel is probably the most common. laquer cracks in time.
the premium industrial truck lines like peterbuilt use polyuerethane. i believe it is dupont imron with clear.
the very best hot rods and show cars used to use laquer. i think they use other systems now. often they use "house of colours" paint.
if you use a system with clear over top it will look more "show car" or modern as opposed to a more "period" paint job.
that is why paint is so complex. the more you know the harder it is to make the decisions.
best thing to do with paint is keep your car covered all the time and limit the sun exposure. stay away from birds like the plague. that white stuff is very acidic. the painter "learns" the paint system so don't try to make him learn a paint that he is not already using unless you want to pay for an extra gallon for him to get the feel for. fyi paint should cost about $250 or more /gallon. one gallon will easily do multiple coats on the entire car, inside, outside, underside, etc. remember that if you are using clear you use more clear than colour so you may be buying 2 qts of colour (in a base/clear system) and a gallon of clear. you also buy hardener and reducer(thinner is usually called reducer). all told the materials are getting up towards the $1000.00 mark.
the shop cannot do a decent job without a proper booth. it MUST use filtered air, be absolutely dust free, and usually down draft. if the booth is next to the sanding area of prep then it is hard to keep out dust every time a car is taken in or out of the booth, consider this. the down draft drives the dust down and filtering keeps dust from comming in once the car is in the booth. the car must be tacked down before and after the car enters the booth. dust is your enemy.
a heat booth to cure the paint (somewhat) should be attached. the point is to harden the paint before anything can stick to it( dust again! or bugs). paint continues to cure for months so be gentle on it. in a perfect world we would just let the car sit for a couple of months after the paint before touching it. then you would assemble and wet sand and polish after.
so talk to the painters. learn about the makers products and systems and do your homework. look at the painters latest work on each day he paints. find out his best day. probably not a monday morning or friday afternoon. most of the real cost is in the prep. all that block sanding. that is mostly what you pay for in a "paint" job. also you pay for the skill of the painter. metalics, pearls,and specials are more difficult to put on. it's the evenness and consistency of the metalic or pearl that shows up.
i plan on dupont imron,no clear, sanded and polished for a period looking paint job.
good luck
rob
i might as well add my 2-cents worth,
PC is correct. eurethane enamel,acrylic enamel,base coat clear coat systems,laquer. many choices and systems out there.
first:
PAINT DOES NOT, REPEAT, DOES NOT, HIDE IMPERFECTIONS OR SCRATCHES!!!!
second:
that out of the way, your final sanding prior to paint should be MINIMUM 800 grit. 1200 grit better. of coarse you build down to this ie, 280,320,400,600,800,1200 IMHO.
third:
you have to decide on the look of the paint you want. if you want that deep wet water look and longevity is not the issue, then many,many coats of laquer with wet sanding between coats is hard to beat(this is a $10,000.00 + paint job minimum).this can go to $50,000.00 if you like.
next in line i would say a good base coat clear coat system. fairly wet looking paint job, has some depth. i believe this can be acrylic or eurethane. this is what most shops do and are set up for. the shop will usually have a particular system they use and are familiar with.
the last but not least is the single coat system. this can be acrylic or poly. it can also have clear sprayed over it as well. a one coat poly that is post sanded and buffed is what i consider the most authentic period paint job for older cars (1950's,1960's). beautiful, but the colour is at the surface. it does not have that deep (or as deep), wet look that base-clear or 20 coats of laquer give.
all these systems are mixed with hardener (isocianates-toxic) and reducer, unless it it cheap junk.
fourth:
paint quality.
all the big paint manufacturers have lines of paint that are "economical" to "best" quality. you get what you pay for. look at the ppg,sikkens,dupont etc web sites to see how many systems each one makes. it will make your head swim.
maaco,and other budget paint places etc use the cheapest,cheapest, materials there are.i won't say any more there.
they all look good when first done, with proper prep of coarse.
eurethane is the toughest. not the easiest to spray i understand and more expensive.probably the longest lasting as well. acrylic enamel is probably the most common. laquer cracks in time.
the premium industrial truck lines like peterbuilt use polyuerethane. i believe it is dupont imron with clear.
the very best hot rods and show cars used to use laquer. i think they use other systems now. often they use "house of colours" paint.
if you use a system with clear over top it will look more "show car" or modern as opposed to a more "period" paint job.
that is why paint is so complex. the more you know the harder it is to make the decisions.
best thing to do with paint is keep your car covered all the time and limit the sun exposure. stay away from birds like the plague. that white stuff is very acidic. the painter "learns" the paint system so don't try to make him learn a paint that he is not already using unless you want to pay for an extra gallon for him to get the feel for. fyi paint should cost about $250 or more /gallon. one gallon will easily do multiple coats on the entire car, inside, outside, underside, etc. remember that if you are using clear you use more clear than colour so you may be buying 2 qts of colour (in a base/clear system) and a gallon of clear. you also buy hardener and reducer(thinner is usually called reducer). all told the materials are getting up towards the $1000.00 mark.
the shop cannot do a decent job without a proper booth. it MUST use filtered air, be absolutely dust free, and usually down draft. if the booth is next to the sanding area of prep then it is hard to keep out dust every time a car is taken in or out of the booth, consider this. the down draft drives the dust down and filtering keeps dust from comming in once the car is in the booth. the car must be tacked down before and after the car enters the booth. dust is your enemy.
a heat booth to cure the paint (somewhat) should be attached. the point is to harden the paint before anything can stick to it( dust again! or bugs). paint continues to cure for months so be gentle on it. in a perfect world we would just let the car sit for a couple of months after the paint before touching it. then you would assemble and wet sand and polish after.
so talk to the painters. learn about the makers products and systems and do your homework. look at the painters latest work on each day he paints. find out his best day. probably not a monday morning or friday afternoon. most of the real cost is in the prep. all that block sanding. that is mostly what you pay for in a "paint" job. also you pay for the skill of the painter. metalics, pearls,and specials are more difficult to put on. it's the evenness and consistency of the metalic or pearl that shows up.
i plan on dupont imron,no clear, sanded and polished for a period looking paint job.
good luck
rob
jsneddon
Jedi Knight
Offline
Re: polyurethane or enamel?
[ QUOTE ]
By the way Its the painter who doesnt want to do the work required, thats why they go B/C, then charge more for it cause everybody thinks thats the best. BS.
[/ QUOTE ]
BOXoROCKS is back! what happened? 6 months and no posts?
Welcome back bud.
[ QUOTE ]
By the way Its the painter who doesnt want to do the work required, thats why they go B/C, then charge more for it cause everybody thinks thats the best. BS.
[/ QUOTE ]
BOXoROCKS is back! what happened? 6 months and no posts?
Welcome back bud.