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GT6 "new" GT6 MK3 planned restoration...

Flinkly

Jedi Trainee
Offline
hi, first post, but lets get to the meat and potatos.

I just "inherited" a 71 gt6 mk3 and i'm planning to do a restoration. so far i've found the cooling system through the engine to be rusted, is this a potential problem? aside from that, there seems to have been a front end accident. the front crossmember is very rippled and there is a slight kink in the main chassis rail right before the front right suspension. do i need a new frame or is this easy to overlook?

aside from that, i'm planninng to rebuild the engine, gearbox and carbs, and see what i can do with the rest. the interior will need to be replaced (mostly since it's already been ripped out), and i plan to do body and chasis paint.

anyway, i'm new to all this and wanted to know if i should have the engine professionally redone or if i could do it myself. i'd like to learn, and you've got to start somewhere. as for the rest, how much will a decent restoration run me and how much will it be worth in the end?

thanks for all the info guys.
 
Hi and welcome,

Oh geez! Hard questions to answer!

Lucky you! I'd love to "inherit" a GT6 (or pretty much any Triumph, not to mention more than a few other models from some other British marques!).

First of all, go out and get some books about car restoration in general. These can help you organize and get started. Then get books specific to the GT6 Mark III to help decide how you want the car to end up and educate yourself what to look for, how the car goes together and what constitutes "original", if that's important to you (an original car is generally more valuable). Next try to realistically decide what level you want to take the car to, set up a plan and decide on a $$$ budget and a time line (all of which *will* get blown outta the water anyway, but hey, go ahead and try to set some goals).

There are "restorations" everywhere from shade-tree, rolling, ongoing fixups of daily drivers to full-blown, frame off, concours level trailer queens that no one dares to drive. What you do is up to you (and your budget).

Some critical things are adequate space (Until recently, my TR4 frame-off projekt pretty much occupied all of a two car garage... a three car garage would have been ideal!) and a lot of organization! Photograph everything before disassembling. Make sketches. Take notes! Get a good manual specific to the car. Clearly label parts as they are removed, bag them and store carefully. A bunch of deep storage shelves would be handy, too. Throw nothing away until the job is complete. Even obviously worn out and unusable items will be needed for close comparison with replacement parts.

Now, don't watch "Overhaulin" or "American Hot Rod" on TV. These shows will make you think the job is easy and can be done in a week (in the case of the former) to a couple months (in the case of the latter). It can't, unless you have major $$$s to spend! Note that Overhaulin has 30-40 people working on the car round the clock for 7 days. They also job out a lot of the work. Do the math and you'll get some idea how much time these pros put in on a restoration project, then double or triple it for an amateur. By the way, note that many of the pros are highly specialized, while most amateurs try to "do it all".

The engine can be "boiled" to clean it out. This will necessitate installing cam bearings, but a good machine shop can handle it. Good opportunity to upgrade some things in the engine, if you wish.

By all means, rebuild the engine yourself if you wish. Triumphs are a good learning ground. They are relatively straight-forward and comparitively easy to work on. It would be useful to have someone experienced looking over your shoulder (figuratively, if not literally) as you don't want to have to do the job over, if at all possible, due to some silly mistake or oversight! Having an engine professionally rebuilt is pricier, but generally more certain and often warranted to some degree. You will become good friends with a local machine shop and get to know some parts suppliers, along the way.

An interesting possibility would be to take some automotive classes at a local junior college, and drag in projects from your car to work on. These can be great ways to get help and supervision of your work, while still doing a lot of the work yourself. Useful classes might be in engine repair, body work, painting, welding, sheetmetal fabrication, etc., etc.

From the sound of it, I think you are likely looking at replacing or repairing the frame. If it were me, I'd start by looking for a good straight candidate to replace it with. Once you have that, send it to a frame shop to be professionally checked for trueness and soundness, do or have done any work on it that's needed and then have it painted. After that you can start to remove parts from the old frame, install them onto the refurbished "new" frame a little at a time as each item is rebuilt/restored/replaced as needed. A frame off job like this is not so intimidating as it might sound... really goes pretty quickly and gives a method of organizing... but does require a lot of floor space! Try to visualize how the factory built the car, and that might give you some idea of the process.

How much will you spend? About 3X your wildest estimate!

Seriously, it totally depends on how you go about the restoration and your end goals. I've seen amazing cars put together for under $10K, but that involved a lot of luck and skill. At the other end, the TR4 recently sold for $97K at Barrett-Jackson auction *supposedly* had $85K spent on the restoration. I'm still trying to figure out how someone could spend that much! A more common figure for later model Triumphs might be in the $15K-$50K range. That's a big range, I know, but that's about as accurate as is possible without *a lot* more specifics.

Nearly always, selling the car won't recoup all the cost of restoration. Completed cars that are "original" or only have very high quality modifications will bring the best returns. Only very high-profile professional restoration shops that can both do the job as efficiently as possible *and* charge top dollar ($60K, $80K, $100K and up is not uncommon) for their work can really be profitable in this business.

The good news is that Triumphs (and many collectible cars) are appreciating. The older cars and rarer models will do so faster. GT6 are relatively rare, compared to say TR6, Spitfire and TR7. But, they aren't as "retro" as a TR2, 3 or even a 4.

One nice thing about Triumphs overall is parts availability. There are a number of suppliers of both new and used parts. (It pays to shop around.)

What's a restored GT6 Mk III worth? I dunno... check Hemmings to see what people are asking for them, but that doesn't give a clue as to the actual selling prices. Check eBay for recently completed sales, but seller descriptions vary wildly: it seems there that one seller's "concours" or "NOS" is another person's daily driver or used and rusty part. Auction prices can be very fickle, anyway. I paid just over $400 for an old camera that usually sells for $2000-3000... simply because the seller's description and headline were so poor that no one saw it and I had little competition. On the other hand, there are instances where people go crazy bidding against each other (see the $97K TR4).

I can assure you, though, likely the cheapest would be an abandoned or incomplete restoration. Way too many well-intended projects end up that way, and are sold for pennies on the dollar.

There are old car Blue Books that might give a better feel for average prices. www.kbb.com might help, as well as Hemmings and Edmunds (not sure I spelled that last one right).

You gotta really love doing the work to make it to the finish line of a major restoration project.

Depending upon how familiar you are with the car already, maybe you'd be wise to join a local Triumph club or otherwise try to get a ride in, maybe drive some GT6s to see if you really like them and want to put in the time and expense. For example, if you are 6'-5" tall and have a 40" waist, it's likely not the car for you! (And you should probably just ship it to me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Car clubs can also be a great source of advice and assistance - not to mention encouragement - all of which you will need along the way. This website is also a great bunch of people with tons of knowledge about these great old cars! There are many more resources on the Internet, which has really been a boon for old car lovers and restorers! (That I can assure you from trying to get Triumph parts back in the 1970s.) There are also a lot of *opinions* (mine for example) here and elsewhere. This can be everything from do/don't powdercoat the frame, to do/don't use syntheic oil, to do/don't use this particular camshaft. More info, but more to wade through and sort out.

Oh and one other thing you might want is a BMIHT "build certificate" for your car, available at https://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/archive/certificate_index.html Based upon your car's VIN number, it lists nearly all the original specifications as the car came from the factory: colors of interior and extrerior, options installed, extras that were included, along with shipping and destination information. Sometimes even key codes are given. These documents can be very useful if you want to build the car to original specifications.

Good luck with the project. We'll be wanting to see pictures and hear regular reports, you know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

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Flinkly-

If you do replace the frame, keep in mind that a spitfire frame can likely be used fairly easily. Maybe some issues to work on on the rear end if you have a rotoflex suspension, but other than that it should be a bolt on change.

Welcome to the club!
Randy
 
I'll back up what Randy says. In fact, at the front you'll probably need only to use the GT6 frame's radiator mounts as well as the front suspension and "turrets" complete. As for the rear, I'm pretty sure that Canley Classics in the UK can supply new mounts to weld on for the Rotoflex suspension.

That said, I wonder if you'll need to go to that trouble. If you mean the very front crossmember, where the bonnet pivots and such mount, that's rather easily replaceable. As for the "kink" in the main rail, I agree that that's a job for a professional to assess and repair (which I suspect can be done).

But at worst, moving the GT6 body from one chassis to another really isn't that big a deal...only about a dozen bolts hold the actual body tub to the chassis. Three friends and a couple six-packs of beer are usually enough to perform the physical move, and you probably won't even need to strip out the interior beyond seats and carpets (mostly so you can get at the mounting bolts)!
 
well, i've got good and bad news. first the good.

i've already spent two years looking at information about gt6's, triumphs, and alot of other british cars, since i first heard about the gt6 two years ago (and moved it closer to home). since then, i've aquired a gt6 repair manual, restoration manual, parts catalog, and asked for catalogs from vic brit and rimmer. i've also taken the car down to the motor in the front (accept the manifolds, i can't believe they got them on, let alone how they expect them to come back off) and removed the interior and doors.

the bad part is that i have a few bolts that i don't know where they are from, along with more frame damage. it seems that a PO had a hard time learning how low his car was from the ground, and i can see where the first two outriggers to bolt the tub to have also been bent towards the rear, although i could see about repairing that myself.

i've got some preliminary pics that i'll put up here...so let me get to the next post.
 
well, here she is. the first is the bonnet, with a small rust spot where someone dented the hood on the right, easy fix. the second is the body and engine with my assistant in the background. this was taken on his birthday too. and the third is the dash. two guages were replaced, but the originals are still there and will be put back in, even if i have to send them to nisinger for repair.

i do plan on changing the dash over to a tr6 format, so i can have one more guage as well as a locking glovebox. and i plan on doing the exterior in gunmetal and removing the rear wing chrome pieces and grinding down the metal underneath. does anyone know if i need to weld in some support underneath after doing that? anyway, i've got to go, tell me what you think.

01.jpg


02.jpg


03.jpg
 
You'll definitely need to do something after grinding down those flanges on the rear fenders, since that is where the fender joins the inner panels/structure.

For the dash, it might be simpler to obtain a mechanical dual guage for oil pressure and water temperature. These were available as accessory gauges and were standard equipment on various MGs. The needles can be painted to match those on your present gauges, and you'll need an adaptor for the temperature gauge sender (readily available from companies such as Moss Motors, as the gauge was used in late MG Midgets that had Triumph engines).

Instead of a locking glovebox, I'd simply put anything of value under the rear deck panel (where the spare tire goes); that way it's just as "out of sight"!
 
problems with originality as far as resell value would be changing the brake system to feature a servo and toyota calipers and such things as that, correct?

i think the only modifications i'm looking to make that might fall into that category would be a spin on oil filter, aluminum valve cover, electric radiator fan, poly bushings throughout, dash change, body color and removing the rear fender chrome as discussed earlier. oh, and electronic ignition and a newer starter. and i guess new fuse box for blade fuses. i guess i am changing alot. will all that really effect sell price? i don't expect to sell it within the next 2 years though, but then again, i'm not even out of college yet (ducks for cover). most of the things i'm going to change can be readily converted back, accept the rear fender, that would require some welding, but still easy.

anyway, i haven't even had the head and block magnafluxed, so this is all just speculation, since if the engine is bad, this might just have to become a parts car. anyway, on with the restore.
 
If you are concerned about later resale value, unless you are Chip Foose, removing the rear fender flanges and making relatively permanent body mods like that will have a *much* more derogatory effect on the eventual sale price you'll get, than will easily reversible changes such as the rad fan and valve cover.

On a car that's relatively rare as GT6, speaking for myself, I'd probably not get into any major body mods. I *might* install a a LeMans bonnet and/or front spoiler. (But, I'd be sure to keep the original parts, just in case.)

But, hey, it's your car and what you do is up to you.

As Andy mentioned, the flanges under the stainless steel trim strips are somewhat structural and IMHO, the stainless steel fender trim beading is sort of a hallmark or styling point of Triumphs from mid-50s TR3s on. I don't know about GT6, but have seen TR4/4A/250 with the beading removed and various fender seams closed up, smoothed and painted over, and it seriously devalued the car in most buyers eyes. Another example, the hacksawed/flared fenders that were on it when he bought it were a key reason my ex-brother in law got a '64(ish) Corvette for $500... Largely because he owned a body shop and Chevy dealership, he was able to restore that car to showroom originality pretty cost effectively and vastly increase it's value, as well as win a few nice awards. We are seldom in touch now, so I dunno if he still has it. If so, I'm sure it's still concours and easily worth $75-100K, perhaps more.

On the other hand, I have to admit there are some "subtle" mods to the body on my TR4. All the welded joints that are normally visible around the rear deck are have been brazed and leaded. Many folks would probably not even notice this change, that cleans up the TR4 body style a bit. The original stainless fender beading, though, has been retained. While there is some precedent for seam welding done on competition cars to increase body rigidity, the easily unbolted/replaceable fenders were a deliberate design consideration of the car.

Safety and maintenance or mechanical modernization/reliability things like adding a dual brake circuit (which you already have), upgraded brakes, improved starter/ignition/alternator, more fuses & circuits/blade fuses, improved cooling system with an electric fan, and even EFI and/or electronic engine management systems all seem to be more and more acceptable or even appreciated by most buyers. These sorts of changes now generally seem "neutral" or can even add value if done exceptionally well. Outright engine swaps might not do much, or might cost $$$s at sale time, though.

Interior mods, such as adding dash gauges, changing upholstery colors to non-stock, can also be relatively neutral against value, or might even enhance it. Needs to be well-done and appropriate/period correct looking, though, or value can suffer.

[ QUOTE ]
anyway, i haven't even had the head and block magnafluxed, so this is all just speculation, since if the engine is bad, this might just have to become a parts car. anyway, on with the restore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy do I agree with that! I made the mistake of worrying about the cosmetics initially, everything else later on my very first restoration project. Paid a price for it eventually! Now, I would always want to be sure to take care of all the chassis and mechanicals before putting too much more than a close, careful "rust patrol" inspection into the body and interior.

So long as the body is sound and chassis can be repaired or easily replaced, I would think it would be worth chasing down an engine, if needed.

Oh, and a brake servo might have been optional on GT6, I dunno, do a little research. It was optionally availble on TR4/4A/250/6, so is generally considered an appropriate upgrade, adding value, especially if a Lockheed or Girling unit that is relatively similar to what was originally available is used.

Best of luck with the project! Have fun and keep us posted.


/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
...As Andy mentioned, the flanges under the stainless steel trim strips are somewhat structural and IMHO, the stainless steel fender trim beading is sort of a hallmark or styling point of Triumphs from mid-50s TR3s on. I don't know about GT6, but have seen TR4/4A/250 with the beading removed and various fender seams closed up, smoothed and painted over, and it seriously devalued the car in most buyers eyes....

[/ QUOTE ]It's not quite the same situation, but a good "parallel" nonetheless. On the TRs, one deals with fenders that bolt on. In my experience, probably 98% of cars "deseamed" as Alan describes are hiding massive amounts of rust with equally massive amounts of body filler! :smile: But on a more practical level, this deseaming even on a rock-solid car is great...until the day some full-blown winky backs into your fender at the local supermarket. What might have been a several hundred dollar R&R of a fender turns quickly into a megabuck body restoration. Not cool.

(And it's worse on the TR2/3 models. Again, the deseaming process may look good to you, but wait until you find out that you need to pull the radiator...which requires removing the front apron...which now requires chiseling through several pounds of filler and many hundreds of dollars' worth of paint. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif )

As I said, the GT6 and Spitfire have a somewhat parallel situation. The fenders are all spot-welded on. Should fender replacement be necessary, all one does is drill out about 6,000,000 spot welds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif and then spot-weld on a new fender. Once you attempt to "deseam" the rear fenders, you're looking at MAJOR extra work should you need to replace a fender later on.

If that's the "look" you want and you're willing to do the work and take the "risk" as outlined above, that's fine. But for most future buyers, it almost certainly will hamper resale value.
 
Hi again,

Regarding the locking glove box, I agree the "parcel shelves" leave something to be desired.

A possible alternative you might watch for are aftermarket center consoles that were made for LBCs. I've got one squirreled away in storage that fits snugly over the driveshaft tunnel in my TR4, has a lifting lid with a lock and serves as a nice arm rest. These were available back when these cars were new, now occasionally show up on eBay or at swap meets. I also seem to recall seeing that someone is currently offering new ones on a website, but those were said to be pretty pricey.

Just a thought. Extra storage space in LBCs is always handy!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
ok, ok, no deseaming. i guess i'll have to get those rails that fit over them rechromed, along with my bumpers and rear air louver things. i really need to work on the names of all these parts. oh, and a bit of good news, the engine looks great inside, probably didn't need a full teardown, but it hasn't moved for some time, so it won't hurt. i do seem to be missing a plug under the exhaust manifold, and all the plugs cup outwards instead of what i thoguht was supposed to be inwards, but i was going to replace all the plugs anyways. keep up the helpful information, and i'll try to get some more pictures in the next few days.
 
Finkly, I'm not sure about the '73's, but on my '67, the strip that goes over the seam is made of stainless. Maybe you just need to polish them.
Jeff
 
My rear air louvres are body colour, I don't think they are supposed to be chromed are they?

Anyway, my view is - bugger originality, keep the style of the car, and tweak it to your enjoyment.
 
Perhaps this is a silly question but did the GT6 offer an air conditioner? Owning an enclosed hardtop down South would be a real bugger. Even on my TR6 (which offered a dealer-installed AC, I don't have nor want one)I can unzip the rear window flap and enjoy a decent breeze at speed. Couldn't fathom having a hardtop without air down here.


Bill
 
yeah, dealer installed air conditioning, but not in mine. i'm in oregon so an enclosed car will take some of the water leak issues out of the equation, althoguh i'd love to have a tr4-tr6 instead. as for the rear seam, it does seem to be stainless, but mine is kind of black. i could probably polish it off though. as for the chrome air louvers, i've seen them both ways in triumph adverts. if i stick with a dark color i think i'll have them chromed, if i can afford it by the time i get to that.

can someone help me with triumph years? my comm. plate says my car was born in october of 1971, but my car seems to be a 72 when it comes to parts. should i just use the appropriate number stamps when ordering parts instead of trying to guess a year? i really need to get a heritage certificate...'cept i fear my car has parts from several others, due to the frame damage i've seen. anyway, i've already started with her, so i might as well keep going. off to the heritage website.

oh, and i'm uploading all my pics to my school "webpage", so feel free to look.

https://oregonstate.edu/~judgejo/GT6/
 
i keep forgetting to ask this...

so i'm planning to do the engine rebuild myself, but i obviously have to have a machine shop take care of some things. apart from a wash and magnaflux, what do i need to have a machine shop do? do i just have them check flatness on all surfaces and grind if necassary? and what about the crankshaft and camshaft? or rockers? i just don't want to head down to the local machine shop and sound dumb when i don't know what's going on. so, what do i want checked and ground if neccassary? thanks guys for all the help for the newb.
 
[ QUOTE ]
...as for the rear seam, it does seem to be stainless, but mine is kind of black. i could probably polish it off though....

[/ QUOTE ]I vaguely remember that these are a "black anodized" finish, but more than likely that finish is on stainless steel. So you could either polish them or have them reanodized.
[ QUOTE ]
can someone help me with triumph years? my comm. plate says my car was born in october of 1971, but my car seems to be a 72 when it comes to parts. should i just use the appropriate number stamps when ordering parts instead of trying to guess a year?

[/ QUOTE ]If the commission number is KC10001U or higher, it's a 1972 model. (Think about it, would they still be building 1971 models as late as October of that year? Heck, there are already any number of 2007 model new cars available now!) With these cars, it is always best to use the commission number or other unit serial number on major components when ordering parts. Your engine is an excellent example. If it's original, it should have a number with the "UE" prefix; that indicates that it is the low-compression "Federal spec" engine. This is important especially in that it takes a different head gasket than does the 1971 model.
 
oh man, i am a newb. i was thinking logically about the year. so much for my fancy education.

also, does anyone have any tips for removing engine studs that won't come out using the two nut method, or how to get that huge bolt off the front of the crank pulley? i heard that you could use a screwdriver against some bolts put back in, but i don't think a screwdriver is going to cut the mustard. i've used plenty of penatrator on both but to no avail. time to get a torch i guess.
 
You have to find some way to stop the crankshaft from rotating. Not sure if heat would really help or not. I have seen esentially the same idea as the screwdriver but using the flywheel side of the crank and the flywheel mounting bolts and a large prybar instead of the scredriver. I have also seen a 2X4 wedged between the crank and the block (after you remove the oil pan) but didn't really approve of that method. Though it did work and did not cause any harm to anything. I just cringed while watching it. A pipe wrench on the fan extension works to but you will chew up the extension.

The easiest way, if you have the tool, is a 1/2 inch impact wrench. Cranked up to full power should do it.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
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