TR2/3/3A narrow wheel tr3

[sp53]

I am curious is there an advantage to having a narrow wheel base on a tr3. Why did they make them that way? Was it because the roads are narrow in England?

 

[Andrew Mace]

I'll assume you are referring to track (distance between wheels on front or between wheels on rear); wheelbase is the distance between a front and rear wheel. But probably in part, yes, because roads were narrow "over there." Although it didn't survive past the first prototype, the chassis of the original "TR1" was sourced from a prewar Standard Nine. As much of the body design survived past the first prototype, presumably that more or less set spec's for front and rear track?

 

[gjh2007]

A little off topic, but my understanding about LH vs RH drive was the Brits went with RH because the knights would always approach each other right to right as they drew their swords from the left side & could reach further to the right.

I also believe the orig "narrow gauge" railroads were 3.5' or there abouts as the orig. Roman roads & carriage paths had a 3.5' track. That's a little more on topic, hey?

Some post-post research:

Why do people in Britain and some of their former colonies drive on the left side of the road? Is it just a case of clinging stubbornly to an outdated tradition, such as the confusing English system of measures? --Billy Bob, Memphis, Tennessee

Dear Bilbo:

Try to be tolerant. Seven hundred years ago everybody used the English system, and if distressing numbers of us have proven fickle in the centuries since, that's no reason to dump on the Brits.

In the Middle Ages you kept to the left for the simple reason that you never knew who you'd meet on the road in those days. You wanted to make sure that a stranger passed on the right so you could go for your sword in case he proved unfriendly.
This custom was given official sanction in 1300 AD, when Pope Boniface VIII invented the modern science of traffic control by declaring that pilgrims headed to Rome should keep left.

The papal system prevailed until the late 1700s, when teamsters in the United States and France began hauling farm products in big wagons pulled by several pairs of horses. These wagons had no driver's seat. Instead the driver sat on the left rear horse, so he could keep his right arm free to lash the team. Since you were sitting on the left, naturally you wanted everybody to pass on the left so you could look down and make sure you kept clear of the other guy's wheels. Ergo, you kept to the right side of the road. The first known keep-right law in the U.S. was enacted in Pennsylvania in 1792, and in the ensuing years many states and Canadian provinces followed suit.

In France the keep-right custom was established in much the same way. An added impetus was that, this being the era of the French Revolution and all, people figured, hey, no pope gonna tell ME what to do. (See above.) Later Napoleon enforced the keep-right rule in all countries occupied by his armies. The custom endured even after the empire was destroyed.

In small-is-beautiful England, though, they didn't use monster wagons that required the driver to ride a horse. Instead the guy sat on a seat mounted on the wagon. What's more, he usually sat on the right side of the seat so the whip wouldn't hang up on the load behind him when he flogged the horses. (Then as now, most people did their flogging right-handed.) So the English continued to drive on the left, not realizing that the tide of history was running against them and they would wind up being ridiculed by folks like you with no appreciation of life's little ironies. Keeping left first entered English law in 1756, with the enactment of an ordinance governing traffic on the London Bridge, and ultimately became the rule throughout the British Empire.

......

 

[martx-5]

This always amazes me. On Sept 3rd, 1967, Sweden changed from driving on the left, to driving on the right. It happened all in one fell swoop.

 

[NutmegCT]

Man what memories that brings. I was there for the changeover. Night before, we saw duplicate road and street signs covered up. Just before the change, the covers were moved to the "old" signs, so the new signs took over, facing the opposite direction.

I remember the next morning, from the train window we saw cars on the highways, moving only about 30 mph. As they'd approach the top of a hill, they'd almost stop, as they weren't sure the cars coming up the other side of the hill would remember which side they were supposed to drive on.

Here's a pic from downtown Stockholm in the early morning of 3 September, as the cars on the street prepared to switch sides.

 

[Don Elliott]

At the end of WW II, the European Nations asked the British if it was not the perfect time to convert all their driving to be on the right side like the rest of Europe.

Winston Churchill who had just directed the British in their win over the enemy during WW II and who knew that Napoleon had forced all the nations he had conquered to drive on the right, replied as follows.

"Nevah in the history of the British Empire will the British drive on the side of the defeated!"

 

[mrv8q]

See, it's topics and answers like this that I love my BCF!
(oh, yeah, Triumph stuff, too!)

 

[NickMorgan]

I was just asking myself the same question last night when I put a new desktop picture on my laptop. My Herald, TR3 and 1300 were widened by about 10% and all looked much better that way!
Certainly when you compare the amount of available space in the UK with that in the USA it is maybe easier to understand why the cars are (were) smaller here. I suspect that the size of the roads at the time was the limiting factor.
Interesting to note how cars have become wider over the years. Each new version of each model is slightly larger than its predecessor. Even cars such as the Triumph 2000, which I used to think were quite wide look very narrow these days.
It is also interesting to note that cars are now more readily available throughout the world. We can even buy American cars over here these days!!! Corespondingly the roads seem to be widening.
Shame they can't make the parking spaces wider to accommodate the cars now. You guys would be shocked how small the spaces are as the little dents along the side of my cars will testify!

 

[Twosheds]

Makes loading a TR3 on an open-center trailer quite dicey, too!

 

[sp53]

Really Andy I did not know that and yes your assumption is correct. I was thinking more in terms of handling because there have been a couple of times that I have spun out in my tr3, and I assumed that it was because the car was too skinny. I figured when I posted the question someone would say, it was so they can cut through the air like an arrow or something engineerie like that, or they change lanes better because they are not as wide, or that you want the back end to come around some, so that you get use that centrifugal force in a controlled slide. I do not about you guys Nick, but around here we have these very large personal pickups that do not even fit in a space, and people drive them around like an inflated ego. Years ago, I wrote my Master’s thesis at UW on aggressive driving and road rage some of the research was fascinating.

 

[NutmegCT]

sp53: <span style="font-style: italic">"... large personal pickups that do not even fit in a space, and people drive them around like an inflated ego. Years ago, I wrote my Master’s thesis at UW on aggressive driving and road rage some of the research was fascinating."</span>

What???? You mean there are a few people who choose their cars to feed their ego?

Actually, I always wondered why so many shiny pickups with double rear wheels and 4WD and the "off road" logo never even seem to get dusty (but the rear-end spoiler does look pretty). They're usually the ones around here that drive about 20mph over the speed limit, weave in and out of traffic, and whip around to pass you in a no-passing school zone.

I'd sure like to read your master's thesis. Is it available online or as a pdf?

Thanks.
Tom

 

[TR3driver]

As much of the body design survived past the first prototype, presumably that more or less set spec's for front and rear track?

Or possibly it was because the TR2-early TR3 shared rear axle assemblies with the Mayflower (and others). The track is wider than a Standard Nine I believe.

But I think a related point is important : The TRs were intended as very low-cost sports cars, economical to design, to build, to buy, and to operate. The "economical to design" part is the reason they share so many parts with other ST products; the engineers were simply not given a blank sheet of paper (so to speak). And wide track was considered relatively unimportant to performance at that time.

However, although a wider track does help, the low center of gravity means it doesn't help much (and the CG can be lowered even farther than the factory had it). With the CG that low, you should have no trouble whatsoever outcornering those dually trucks.

More likely, IMO, your problems with "spinning out" are due to lack of rebound travel in the rear suspension. In a hard turn, the inside rear spring reaches the top of it's travel when the axle hits the frame, and rather forcibly lifts the rear wheel from the ground. That suddenly transfers extra weight to the outside wheel, which in turn breaks loose and slides sideways. The sudden transition from understeer to oversteer has thrown many a driver off in the weeds. Or, if there is enough pavement, sometimes the effect is that the rear end starts "skipping" sideways.

This is why I started adding sway bars to my TR3A, to reduce body roll and hence the axle hitting the frame. It's quite effective.

BTW, it's also easy to increase the rear track, if you're willing to modify the bodywork a bit (ala TR3 Beta). The TR4 rear axle will bolt right up, and moves the wheels outwards over an inch. I drove a TR3A so equipped for several years, and it did improve handling (at the expense of having the tires rub the bodywork a bit in hard turns). TR6 wheels will also bolt up, and have increased offset to produce a wider track.

 

[sp53]

Why thank you Tom for your nice words, but it is not that great although some people liked it. The project basically hinges on the Jungian shadow self and our fast-paced culture in which time has become money. Time then is a social construct and the Western world is the push. The Jungian shadow is the suppressed primitive side of the self that strikes out when frustrated. Moreover, the frustration leads to aggression and the automobile is an effective avenue to express the frustration. Ya da ya da ya I just did a lot of research and read some interesting studies on road rage. One thing interesting is that road rage is basically non-existent in North Dakota.

 

[NickMorgan]

... And when you think of the cars that were produced in theUK even earlier (MG T-series, Austin 7), the TR had quite a wide track in comparison.