TR2/3/3A Moss rear leaf springs?

[karls59tr]

I just received the new leaf springs I ordered from Moss. It appears that the "rebound clips" (the heavy steel clamps that hold the leafs together) are not crimped flush to the top of the leafs like the original springs? There is a 1/4' gap between where the clips bed over at the top of the leaf. It seems to me that these clips should fold over flush to the top to do their job properly? Could this be a factory assembly error or am I needlessly worrying?
Also the original springs have two Pins(heavy duty round head bolt type affairs) holding the rebound clips where the new springs only have one Pin per rebound clips????

 

[PeterK]

I've also been in the market and looking at the Moss standard rear srings. Can you tell the country of mfg? Caliper measure the thickness of the steel?

I wouldn't think that the bands would be a big problem, maybe take a bfh and tighten them up but the leaves should be able to slide against each other, not side to side. So don't forget to oil between them before you put them on. I usually lay them on their side overnight to let the oil seep in. Others (Randall) have talked about using UMHW between the leaves.

 

[karls59tr]

I'd forgotten about the leaves being able to slide but the original leaves have the rebound clips hammered down flush? I considered taking a bhf to flatten them down but thought the force might weaken or pop the pin on the other side?
The leaves look to be about the same thickness as original but I'll measure them with a caliper and get back to you. Moss sticker says made in UK. Any thoughts on why they went with only one pin to hold each rebound clip.....seems like two would make fore a more solid assembly?

 

[TR3driver]

I neglected to save the link, but one of the articles I read about rebuilding heavy truck springs said that it was important that the clips hold the leaves together. Something about not letting them separate during rapid rebound. Whether that would apply to a TR3 or not is a different question. But I read it on the Internet, so it must be true

One rivet instead of two doesn't sound like anything to be concerned about, though. It's just to keep the clips from moving down the spring.

I got the tip about UHMW from TeriAnn Wakeman, and passed it along as it seems like a good idea at the time. But in comparing springs in my test fixture, I couldn't see any difference between the one with UHMW and one without. So I'm still not sure how much difference it makes or even whether the difference is always a Good Thing. For sure, the friction between the leaves provides part of the damping in the rear, so if you can manage to reduce that friction, the rear suspension will be bouncier unless you also use stiffer shocks.

I'm also interested to hear about any measurements you can make with the Moss springs. Has anyone tried contacting Eaton Detroit Springs about springs for a TR3? https://www.eatondetroitspring.com/

 

[karls59tr]

it just occured to me that once the springs are on the car and subject to load would the weight of the car and the springs settling in close up the gap I mentioned???

 

[sp53]

In Tacoma there is a company that makes leaf springs and I showed one from a tr3 that had the big leaf broke in hopes he could make the leaf. He commented on making the roll on the end and said that would be the main cost, so I should just get whole new spring, and said he could duplicate them for 150.00 each. This is a good shop with seasoned people that has been there since I can remember, and I would think other large cities should have something similar. Next time I get springs, I will get them made there.

 

[martx-5]

I'm also interested to hear about any measurements you can make with the Moss springs. Has anyone tried contacting Eaton Detroit Springs about springs for a TR3? https://www.eatondetroitspring.com/

I've got a set of Moss springs that I got last year that I haven't installed yet. They are the stock springs, part #851-195. They also have a number stenciled on each spring, 208636, which is the Triumph part number.

I don't know exactly what measurements you want, but here's a list. If you want any more, I can measure however you want.

Length -- NOT following the arc --

Main, eye to eye in the center -- 40.25"
2nd Leaf -- 38"
3rd Leaf -- 31.5"
4th Leaf -- 24"
5th Leaf -- 18"
6th Leaf -- 8.25"

Width -- on all leaves -- 2"

Thickness -- on all leaves -- 0.237"

Bow -- with both eyes on the table to main spring -- 4.375"

 

[karls59tr]

martx-5 Looking at the lower spring in your picture do you see where the "rebound clips" (the clamps that bind the leaves together)are? On my springs most of these clips are not bent over so that the tops of the clips are flush with the top leaf. Instead there is a disconcerting "gap" of 1/4" or more between the clip and the top leaf! I'm going to try and send a photo but I'll have to borrow a camera as mine is not working. Would you be able to send a close up photo so I can see how much of a gap there should be "where the clips are bent over at the top of the leaf"? Thx Karl

 

[TR3driver]

Thickness -- on all leaves -- 0.237"

That's what I was looking for. The original main leaf was only .219" with the other leaves at .188" (per TR4 workshop manual). Even the "competition" spring only used .219"/.203". The original springs also had all of the secondary leaves tapered towards both ends. Since the leaf thickness is one of the major factors in spring rate, I believe your springs will be like mine, way too stiff. (Mine also measure around .237")

I thought my local spring shop had closed, but it appears they just merged and moved. I'll give them a try.

 

[TR3driver]

it just occured to me that once the springs are on the car and subject to load would the weight of the car and the springs settling in close up the gap I mentioned???

I don't see how it could. The weight of the car will force the leaves together, so if any change at all, there would be more room under the clip.

On the (unmolested) replacement spring I have, the clip gaps are all over the place, varying between .030" and perhaps 1/8". On the original that I checked, the clips are touching the spring leaf. Based on the article I mentioned above, I believe they should touch lightly, or at least have only a very small gap. The clips are soft, though (not spring metal), so you should be able to close the gaps easily with a BFH or hydraulic press.

 

[martx-5]

martx-5 Looking at the lower spring in your picture do you see where the "rebound clips" (the clamps that bind the leaves together)are? On my springs most of these clips are not bent over so that the tops of the clips are flush with the top leaf. Instead there is a disconcerting "gap" of 1/4" or more between the clip and the top leaf! I'm going to try and send a photo but I'll have to borrow a camera as mine is not working. Would you be able to send a close up photo so I can see how much of a gap there should be "where the clips are bent over at the top of the leaf"? Thx Karl

Here's a couple of pics...

 

[karls59tr]

Thanks for the pics. My new Moss springs have a gap there that you could easily slide another leaf spring worth of metal between in there??? I could bang them down with a hammer as some have suggested but I believe that would just bend the inner parts of the clips down at the center which would probably be good enough but it dosn't look right and should'n't have to be done IMO....it seems to me that the top "bends" where they fold over are bent in the wrong location? These rebound clips are actually made of quite substantial steel( same thickness as the leaves....in the pic martx-5 sent the clips appear much thinner) and would probably pop the other side off in a press.
At any rate I have friend that knows someone in a spring shop and I'll let him have a look at them.

 

[TR3driver]

A rather belated follow-up to this thread : The factory workshop manual mentions as part of spring maintenance to inspect the clips and correct any looseness by "pinching" the ears. "Failure to keep these clips tight frequently causes knocks at the rear of the car."

 

[karls59tr]

Thanks for the info Randall. Very timely. I was actually going to install one of the springs today but have now decided to get them checked out at a spring shop. Most car guys I talked to said they thought it didn't matter that there was a gap between the leaves and the ears but I always had my doubts. The 'clips" on these springs appear to be made of the same material as the leaves themselves!!! so I suspect the clips will have to be heated then hammered or compressed to bend them down into proper position. I'll keep you posted on the result.

 

[PeterK]

Following thread. Thank you.

 

[karls59tr]

Well I took the springs to my friend's friend at the spring company and he said that the clips are basically to keep the leaves together so the top part is not a concern! So the collective wisdom of many seems to indicate that the springs should function as they are supposed to. I'm going to install them and see how it goes. It does make you wonder though that if the ears on the leaves are not bent over properly clunking can occur,it must have been an issue if it's mentioned in the service manual. Maybe the spring guy is not familiar with 60 year old British cars???

 

[Popeye]

This thread is terribly old - and apologies for resurrecting it. However, some information on the spring clips, referred to as "rebound clips":

https://www.eatondetroitspring.com/leafspringclipsiii/

"In fact the correct name of them is "rebound clips" A spring does not break when it is being compressed, it breaks on rebound. When a spring is being compressed each leaf is provided support by both the leaf below it and the leaf above it. When a spring is in rebound the leaves would separate and have any support unless there are clips holding them as a pack.


A correctly designed spring would have between 30 and 50% of the leaves between the clips. The longer the spring, the more clips. Typically the 1st 2 or 3 leaves are held together by one clip then further out 4, 5 or 6 leaves are held together with another clip. Many springs will have 2 clips to the front and 2 to 3 clips to the rear. But the number of clips, the number of leaves held by the clips are determined by the size of and the length of the spring.


As for tightness, the clips needs to be loose enough for the leaves to flex and move length wise. Too tight and the leaves would become bound and break. – Mike"

 

[tdskip]

Good update Mike - thanks for posting.

 

[Geo Hahn]

...When a spring is in rebound the leaves would separate and have any support unless there are clips holding them as a pack... As for tightness, the clips needs to be loose enough for the leaves to flex and move length wise. Too tight and the leaves would become bound and break...

As another poster sometimes says - 'I have experimented with this'.

I had the ears of one clip on the TR3 spring break off - eventually one of the springs also broke.

I used a couple of plates with bolts to make a 'helper' clip that would tightly hold the leaves - that led to more breaks.

Finally replaced the spring, which is what I should have done in the first place.

 

[TR3driver]

I actually got that phrase from John "Twosheds" Herrera (RIP) on the email list.

A couple things about the spring article puzzle me, though:
1) On many trucks, there is an "overload" spring leaf that only comes into play after the rear suspension has significant load on it. It has no clips, and normally does not touch the leaf next to it. Why don't they break because the clip is "too loose"?

2) On a TR leaf spring, the leaves are held together by spring tension (would spread apart without the center bolt) even with the spring unloaded farther than the rear suspension will let it travel. I don't see how a missing clip could allow the leaves to separate even during rebound. Probably different on a 'normal' suspension, with the axle below the spring & frame, though.

As a side comment, when I had a local spring shop add a leaf to the front springs for my motor home, they made new clips from a strip of mild steel bent into a U shape, with a bolt and spacer to form the 4th side. Seemed to work OK, never had any trouble with them breaking. (However, the extra leaf also didn't deliver the promised ride improvement.)