More CRAP Parts

[angelfj1]

This is an excerpt from my post on the UK TR register forum.

<span style="font-style: italic">George: Yes, it could be that simple. However, here is something else to consider. From your photos, it appears that your car was restored recently. I will assume that the parts came from one of the three major suppliers here. We discovered while testing my 3A for coolant leaks that both the engine block and radiator drain cocks leaked. The leak was not at the threads where they thread into their bungs. They actually leak right past the seats, enough to make a large puddle overnight. We ordered three new drain cocks, one from each of the major suppliers. They were all identical and they all leak. In order to maintain genuine appearance we soldered a plug in both drain cocks and replaced them. When we need to drain the system we will merely remove the useless drain cocks and empty the system for flushing , etc.

Sorry to go on ad nausiam, but perhaps you are losing coolant in this way.</span>

 

[martx-5]

I bought new drain cocks from either Moss or TRF (I don't remember which offhand) about 8-10 months ago for my TR3 engine rebuild. Neither one of them show any signs of leaking.

 

[TR4nut]

Frank-

From this link, can you tell if the tap sold by Woolies is possibly better?

Drain tap

I recall some earlier discussion somewhere that a leaking tap may be fixed by lapping in the valve, but I've not had to do that. On my TR4, my block is pretty plugged up, so I never see a leak on that side tap!

Randy

 

[Don Elliott]

I bought new drain taps, installed them and they leaked. I took them off, took them apart and lapped the conical sealing surfaces. Then I put them back in and they didn't leak. But at TRA, a judge docked me part of a point because he saw a green dribble line down the block behing the starter motor. The tap had started to kleak again and I hadn't noticed. This judge actually helped me because something worse could have happened if I had lost too much coolant. So I later drained the coolant and re-lapped this tap. It didn't leak anymore. But because I had also drained the radiator to do this, the tap on the bottom of the rad was now leaking.

Finally, I did like Frank. I removed them both and drilled and tapped them from the inside and installed solid steel threaded plugs (like one might use to block the end of a steel pipe). Then I re-installed both taps and re-filled the systtem. They don't leak and they can't leak. No TRA or VTR judge can ever get me again for leaks down the block and that judge will never know I have permanently sealed the tap from the inside.

NOW THEY DON'T LEAK.

Next time I want to drain the coolant out the system, I'll take an open-end and remove the whole body of the brass tap. I know what you're going to say. The coolant will splash all over the bottom of the block and all over the starter motor. The one under the rad will splash coolant all over the frame, etc.

Well the taps - when they work, will splash all over anyway when you need to drain the system. So nothing is new.

Now you know the rest of the story.

 

[Brosky]

I have one in my new aluminum radiator that I got from TRF last year. I have no leaks and I hope that I don't develop any.

 

[TR3driver]

What we really need are some photos of how the cars looked when they left the dealer's lot ... I'll bet more than one had tracks from a leaking tap!

Anyway, I lapped my originals as Don suggests. Don't recall offhand what I used for lapping compound, but it was much finer than valve lapping compound, perhaps body 'rubbing' compound. Then I added some suitable lubricant (silicone grease as I recall) and replaced the spring with one that provided significant tension (so they would just turn with firm finger pressure, after the lubricant was added). Still working fine after lots of years.

I also added a short tube, so a drain line could be installed and theoretically avoid splashing coolant all over the starter. But since I usually wind up having to fish through the valve to loosen the crud inside the block anyway, I've rarely used the tube. And obviously it's not original but no judge ever deducted points for it ... mostly because no judge ever saw under my hood :laugh:

 

[71MKIV]

In the business I am in, we use those taper fit valves all over the place, and yes they leak from the factory.

Randall is correct. If you lap the parts, with something very fine, we go down to something ridiculous like 12000 grit, and use a silicon lube, and a stouter spring, the leak issue is usually resolved.

 

[tomshobby]

Seems like an opportunity for a responsible manufacturer.

 

[angelfj1]

I must admit that I am very surprised. Either I have lost touch with reality since my recent retirement or you folks enjoy being ripped off!

As someone once said, <span style="font-weight: bold">YOU'RE NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF SHEEPLE!!! </span>

OK, I now realize how one of these inferior drain taps can be repaired. And, I appreciate the expert input by Randall and others. However, why should we tolerate parts that require us to finish them in order for them to function???

<span style="font-weight: bold">As a society, we have been lulled into believing that this sort of nonsense is proper and acceptable. It's pervasive and I have experienced this quality issue in many aspects of my life in recent years. However today let's focus on this recent experience regarding these taps </span>

All three suppliers, Moss, TRF and VB buy this part from the same supplier. They sell it for approx. $20. My insight into the business tells me that they probably pay less than $5 each for them. It's function is to turn off and on the flow of coolant. When it is turned off (closed) nothing is supposed to come out. When it is open, at least a trickle is supposed to come out. Strictly a binary function!

We ended up buying five of these, initially two from one supplier. Then we ordered three more, one from each of big three. Total cost - approx. $112. The shop installed these in the two locations for a labor cost of approx. (0.5 hrs x $60/hr) $30. This operation was done two more times for a cost of approx. $40.

Then when we realized that all five valves leaked (WTF), we took two of them apart and soldered plugs into the bodies. Thus the taps look correct but they are not functional. This extra work took approx. 1 hour @ $60.

Total cost of taps 5 x $20 + s&h = $112.
Total labor R&R taps 70.
Total labor solder plugs 60.
-------
Grand total $242.

Total value (censored)

So, I ask you why do we put up with this???

Conclusion: Nobody gives a F***

During the past eight years this exercise has been repeated many , many times during various operations. I only wonder how much extra $$$ I have spent because of poor quality parts.

<span style="font-weight: bold">OH WELL, IT'S ONLY MONEY!</span>

P.S. Now that I have a bit more of free time, I am considering forming a watchdog group. The purpose of this group will be to advise LBC enthusiasts about parts and service quality issues. If you are interested in participating send me a pm.

 

[Andrew Mace]

<span style="font-weight: bold">As a society, we have been lulled into believing that this sort of nonsense is proper and acceptable. It's pervasive and I have experienced this quality issue in many aspects of my life in recent years.... </span>

I suspect most of us have experienced it; problem is, for whatever reasons, very few people choose to speak up. Sadder still is that, sometimes, all it takes is for people to <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-size: 14pt">speak up</span></span></span> to get something to happen -- but the silence often is deafening!

By "speak up," I do mean first contacting the vendor, the vast majority of whom do seem to a: care and b: respond. I've had a few instances whereby contacting vendors regarding faulty and/or ill-fitting parts got me near-immediate satisfaction in the form of replacements.

I've heard the excuse over the years that so many parts are "made to a price" because the hobby won't support the higher price often necessary to ensure OEM quality or better...but that seems like nonsense to me! I'd like to think that anyone who would pay the relatively high parts and labor prices to keep modern cars going would be willing to do the same for their hobby cars, if only for their own comfort and peace of mind and safety. Maybe not? :frown:

 

[TR3driver]

As a society, we have been lulled into believing that this sort of nonsense is proper and acceptable. It's pervasive and I have experienced this quality issue in many aspects of my life in recent years.

Thirty years ago, you could not even BUY a reproduction brass tap. Now you are complaining that the reproduction is too accurate!

These cars had all sorts of "fit and finish" problems when they were new. It was simply the way things were done. There was a whole crew of people at the factory whose job it was to look for problems and fix them, on "brand new" cars. Then the dealers had to do another inspection, with lots of problems found. Then the new car buyer was also expected to make multiple trips back to the dealer, for even more problems to (hopefully) be found and fixed before they disabled the car.

We had a speaker once at the local club (unfortunately I've forgotten his name, my apologies) who had toured the factory while it was still operating. He commented that by far the most common tool in evidence was the hammer. Big ones, small ones, funny shaped ones. Almost any operation on the unfinished cars involved using a hammer to beat the parts into shape.

While not strictly the topic of the book, I recommend "In the Shadow of my Father" by John Macartney (yes, the same John Macartney currently driving a Stag all around the USA for the Triumph Trans-AmeriCan Charity Drive). John's father worked for Standard-Triumph, as did John himself; and the book is a rare glimpse of the sorts of things that happened (as well as a rollicking good read). There are apparently a few copies left of the 3rd (and final) printing ...

One other thing, Frank ... it appears that you did not return these defective taps to their respective suppliers. If so, I would say you are part of the problem!

As Andy says, the very first step if you get a part you feel is defective should be to contact the supplier; who will usually ask that you return the part. Yes, in some cases, they are unwilling or unable to give you satisfaction. But sending them the part gives them concrete evidence that it was, in fact, defective. Otherwise they (or their supplier) tend to dismiss a simple phone call (or worse yet, email) as a misunderstanding of some sort, and take no action.

I've not received many parts that I felt were defective (in the sense of not meeting the original specification, which wouldn't necessarily apply to a tap that weeped a bit

). But every time, the vendor has promptly offered to replace the defective part with a good part, as soon as they could source a good part. In some cases, that is not possible, so I get to choose getting a refund, or keeping a part that can be modified to be fully functional. I've generally opted for the latter.

While I don't know the details on the brass tap; I do know that, in many cases, the "Big 3" do band together (after a fashion) and have parts reproduced. Obviously they want to keep costs low ... don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't pay $500 for one of those taps, which is about what I would expect to pay if I went to a machinist and asked him to make an exact copy.

To keep costs low, they create a blueprint and get bids for as large a quantity as they think can be sold in a reasonable period of time (say 5 years). A significant portion of the per-unit cost is the setup of the machines to make them; frequently it costs almost the same amount (overall) to make 1,000 parts as 100 parts. At best, they request a small run first but I would guess that in most cases, they just have the contract winner run off 100,000 copies (or however many they estimate can be sold).

Then too, to keep costs down, these parts are made where labor is cheap, which certainly is NOT in either the UK or the US.

One last small point; let's say you are right, Frank, and they pay $5/each for those taps. I don't think the markup is that high, but for the sake of argument. Further suppose that the projected total market for reproduction taps through all the major vendors is 100,000 units. That would mean that someone had to pony up $5 times 100,000 or $500,000 dollars before even one tap is sold! If they sell for $20 (and ignoring all the costs of storing, picking, inventory loss, etc), that means they don't make ONE CENT until they have sold 25,000 taps!

The sad truth is that our vendors are NOT "getting rich" off of us, rather they are struggling to survive.

Where will we be if they fail?

 

[angelfj1]

Randall et al: I appreciate your input. However, I'm sorry that I can't be as sympathetic. If these parts suppliers really are hurting and struggling to survive, wouldn't it be in their best interest to insist on better quality from their suppliers. Perhaps my estimate for the profit margin was indeed unrealistic, but they could make more profit (over the long term) by supplying better quality parts. You just can't discount the cost of handling a customer complaint, returned parts, sending out replacements, etc. So, my conclusion is that these businesses are really quite healthy and there is adequate profit built into their pricing to cover all contingencies. I recently retired after working for 41 years in the electrical power industry. The equation for business success used to be a happy customer which required a good product, fair price and excellent customer service. This is how a company would differentiate itself from the rest of the pack. Has something fundamental changed to invalidate this equation? I think it must have.

BTW, we did return the defective taps. We have been told by all three companies that there have been no reports of this problem. We have also been assured that the problem will be brought to the attention of the supplier.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
"Thirty years ago, you could not even BUY a reproduction brass tap."</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">Yes, and today you can buy all you want at $20 each, but they leak. Is this called progress?</span></span>

We shall see. I am not overly optimistic. :frown:

 

[TR3driver]

<span style="font-weight: bold">
"Thirty years ago, you could not even BUY a reproduction brass tap."</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">Yes, and today you can buy all you want at $20 each, but they leak. Is this called progress?</span></span>

When a little minor modification makes them work, I would say so.

But then, I always tend to view replacement parts as being parts to a kit. I grew up building model cars from kits, long before I was old enough to own (or drive) one. Inspecting and tending to minor imperfections just seems natural to me. I pretty much always dress the sealing surfaces, if I can ... recently did that with a new water pump for my Buick and found a flaw that might have caused a leak. But a few strokes with a file cleaned it up, so it never occurred to me to return it as 'defective'.

If you think you can do better at supplying LBC parts, then by all means go into business for yourself. You'll get my trade IF you can prove that you are better than your competition (which means promptly purveying practically perfect parts for pennies

)

But I look at people like Herman van den Akker, and Joe Alexander, who have been doing exactly that in a VERY limited way; and I see them working very hard and not making a lot of money at it. If you ask Herman, he'll tell you that he is working harder today for less money than before he 'retired'; and he already has competition that undercuts him in price.

Translating what they do for a handful or two of parts to what Moss & TRF do for tens of thousands of parts just boggles my mind.

Wish I could share it; there was an old Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers cartoon where they had an old (even then) LBC that could only be made functional using "parts flown in from England at great expense". It was obviously a common occurrence then. Today I can order practically ANYTHING over the Internet and have it usually CHEAPER than the equivalent part for a modern car within just a few days.

Yes, I call that progress.

 

[tdskip]

Hey guys - this is a great thread but it is starting to read like an argument rather than a discussion. I think there are lots of valid points all around here.

Maybe time for a beer....

 

[Andrew Mace]

But I look at people like Herman van den Akker, and Joe Alexander, who have been doing exactly that in a VERY limited way....Translating what they do for a handful or two of parts to what Moss & TRF do for tens of thousands of parts just boggles my mind.

Not to mention that Herman and Joe are just as susceptible to legal action, should one of their products fail, as are the Runyans, Mosses, Schumachers, Rimmers and everyone else. I admire them all for even trying (and, in another life, I wouldn't mind writing their liability insurance policies and such :wink: )!

Meanwhile, I've had about the same success rate with modern car replacement parts in recent years as I've had with Triumph replacement parts (one bad rebuilt Toyota alternator re: the former, and off-center-drilled repro tie rod ends for a Spitfire re: the latter -- the replacement set was perfect)!

 

[TR3driver]

Meanwhile, I've had about the same success rate with modern car replacement parts in recent years as I've had with Triumph replacement parts

Good point, Andy. The wife's Toyota is on it's 4th (I think) rebuilt alternator in less than 2 years. Several people (including myself) have been over the charging system with a fine-tooth comb (battery replaced twice, clamps once); it appears that the alternators are just not up to snuff. Fortunately they have a lifetime warranty, and I've gotten to where I can change one in about 15 minutes!

Got some bad headlight trim rings for the project TR3; vendor told me over the phone that their entire stock was bad. My choice of refund or wait for good parts ... when the replacements arrived a few weeks later, they were perfect!

 

[PeterK]

I'm still waiting for replacement door latches for the TR3. The ones I received and returned months ago looked really nice but they countersunk the holes at the wrong angle so the screws stood proud of the latch and interfered with the door catch. Such a simple thing as drillinf the holes correctly but the whole batch is bad. I have to wait until they reorder, after they sell you all the bad ones.

 

[jjw]

I must admit that I am very surprised. Either I have lost touch with reality since my recent retirement or you folks enjoy being ripped off!

Couple things to consider... First, most large manufacturers (of anything, not just cars) have entire organizations devoted to Supplier Quality and Vendor managment. (I worked as a supplier quality engineer for a few years at a High Tech firm... great job btw if you like to travel ). Their function is to define and maintain incoming consistency and quality of supplied parts and sub-assemblies. This is all done at quite an expense and I doubt the likes of TRF, Moss, etc. have the resources to do this stuff on a continuous basis. So now that the original auto companies (Triumph, MG, etc.) are long gone, and everything is done third party, we unfortunately are left to ourselves to monitor quality. Not a great scenerio, but it is what it is.

Now if you were willing to pay $200 for that tap instead of $20, the suppliers just may be able to fund that enginering group... quality ain't free

Second... If you're unhappy with a part, send it back with *constructive* critisism. Its my guess that most of the big vendors want to supply quality stuff. They will make amends.

 

[hilsideser]

tdskip, I'm ahead of you on on the cervezas...

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Couple things to consider... First, most large manufacturers (of anything, not just cars) have entire organizations devoted to Supplier Quality and Vendor managment. (I worked as a supplier quality engineer for a few years at a High Tech firm... great job btw if you like to travel ). Their function is to define and maintain incoming consistency and quality of supplied parts and sub-assemblies. This is all done at quite an expense and I doubt the likes of TRF, Moss, etc. have the resources to do this stuff on a continuous basis. So now that the original auto companies (Triumph, MG, etc.) are long gone, and everything is done third party, we unfortunately are left to ourselves to monitor quality. Not a great scenerio, but it is what it is.

Now if you were willing to pay $200 for that tap instead of $20, the suppliers just may be able to fund that enginering group... quality ain't free

Second... If you're unhappy with a part, send it back with *constructive* critisism. Its my guess that most of the big vendors want to supply quality stuff. They will make amends. [/quote]

This isn't limited to British parts.
It's all over.
My understanding is one of the reasons the "Big 3" (now, small 2) mandated licensing was to insure some kind of quality.
And, that stuff is, for the most part.

But, you said it.
We need to police it ourselves, and, if some folks have deep enough pockets not to listen to a report of garbage, and go off and buy the same stuff themselves, and find it doesn't work, well, who's to blame?

I think it good to get specific reports of problem parts.
That way, we are all smarter, and less prone to spend monies we don't have to throw away.

Dave