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Lawyers ........ ARRRGGGHHHH!

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AngliaGT

AngliaGT

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Went to a local burger place that's been here since 1943.
One of the old time places with a counter & round rotating stools
to sit on.
I hadn't been there in a few years.When I went in,I noticed
that the stools were gone,& they were "take out" only.
Seems that there's a lawyer who goes around to places like
these,& is "enforcing" the ADA rules.He told that they needed to pay
him $12,000,& conform to the modern standards.
This guy doesn't care about people with disabilities,he's just
in it for the money.He got the local Artic Circle place shut down -
seemed that business wasn't that great,& the owner had had enough,
so shut it down & layed off all of the workers.
Whatever happened to common sense?

- Doug
 
Is that lawyer charging for his "advice"?

I don't know anything in the ADA that prevents public places from having stools. ADA requires that public places make appropriate arrangements for people with special needs. Wonder what the guy told them to make them feel they have to close down. Sure hope they didn't act only based on his "advice".
 
NutmegCT said:
Is that lawyer charging for his "advice"?

I don't know anything in the ADA that prevents public places from having stools. ADA requires that public places make appropriate arrangements for people with special needs. Wonder what the guy told them to make them feel they have to close down. Sure hope they didn't act only based on his "advice".
Click to expand...

This story has been repeated many times. Part of the problem is that the ADA allows anyone to file suit for not complying, even if they were not injured or inconvenienced in any way (indeed even if they have never been a customer) and the ADA itself is so vague that almost any business can be sued for not complying with it. So the wolves (and there are many of them, not just one) go sniffing around for any business that will probably not fight back, trump up some "non compliance" issue, and offer to settle out of court.

They say the road to hades is paved with good intentions ... the ADA repaved a lot of miles IMO.

That said, IMO "common sense" died when most businesses before ADA refused to make any accommodation at all for disabled customers. No doubt my view is warped because my (late) first wife became disabled and spent a lot of years tooling around in her electric chair.
 
NutmegCT said:
...I don't know anything in the ADA that prevents public places from having stools....
Click to expand...

He took out the stools so he would be treating all customers the same. If he has seating for the able bodied he must also have seating for the disabled.

By going take-out only walking in or roiling in is all the same.
 
As far as I'm concerned that situation is extortion. Amazingly allowed by poor laws. It would take a group effort from the merchants and upset citizens to make a big deal out of it and get things fixed.
Publicly expose the actions of the preditors, and it should be easy to get the public behing a movement.
 
Just to play fair here, ~here is Liam Dwyer~, one of my fellow Spridget racers. He is mostly funded by my friend, Dave Thomas, who wanted to recognize Liam's contributions to this county. Dave is also a Spridget racer........and a lawyer. There's good and bad in all occupations.
 
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That is why the law itself should be abolished. Brick-and-mortar businesses are now aware they should modify to allow access, especially if they have "regulars" with mobility issues. Just good tradecraft.

Passing a bar exam doesn't make one a good lawyer, just one allowed to practice.
 
OK OK maybe im a little harsh, but watching all of the ads on TV saying If you "think" that you "might" have been injured call us now....Or "if you or a loved one has had(fill in any malady)" call us now ... It just makes my blood boil a little
 
I must be missing something. Why did the place remove the stools? There's no ADA section that says "treat all customers the same". ADA says all must have equal opportunity to use the facility. For example, if the facility can't afford an automatic door opener, they can add a doorbell and have a staff person help the "disabled" person enter.

Using the logic of "treating all customers the same", removing the stools would mean people in wheel chairs now need to stand up to order? I'm betting there's a lot more to the story than what appears. Did the owner make the restroom wheelchair accessible, etc.?

I'd really like to hear details of the "lawyer's" involvement in this. For that matter, lawyers don't "enforce" ADA rules. And what the heck was the $12000 for?

Call me Puzzled.
Tom
 
I took a quick look; turns out there are several requirements that might be relative.

5.2Counters and Bars Where food or drink is served at counters exceeding 34 in (865 mm) in height for consumption by customers seated on stools or standing at the counter, a portion of the main counter which is 60 in (1525 mm) in length minimum shall be provided in compliance with 4.32 or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area.

Note that, while section 4 includes a "grandfather" clause for existing construction, that clause only applies to parts of section 4, not section 5. So arguably section 5 applies to all existing construction. And since 5.2 specifically includes section 4.32 without exception, then 4.32 would also apply to existing construction that falls under 5.2.

4.32.2 Seating. If seating spaces for people in wheelchairs are provided at fixed tables or counters, clear floor space complying with 4.2.4 shall be provided. Such clear floor space shall not overlap knee space by more than 19 in (485 mm) (see Fig. 45).
4.32.3 Knee Clearances. If seating for people in wheelchairs is provided at tables or counters, knee spaces at least 27 in (685 mm) high, 30 in (760 mm) wide, and 19 in (485 mm) deep shall be provided (see Fig. 45).
4.32.4* Height of Tables or Counters. The tops of accessible tables and counters shall be from 28 in to 34 in (710 mm to 865 mm) above the finish floor or ground.

There's probably more, but I think that's enough to demonstrate the point.
 
Thanks Randall. You have more patience than I in reading through all that!

Here's one phrase which catches my eye: "or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area."

Wouldn't that mean if one accessible table were provided, then none of the stools would need to be removed? We solved that problem at the air museum simply by putting in place one "pedestal" table - the correct height, and a single center pedestal instead of four legs.

Of course, if the owner is actually making more profit by removing the stools completely, maybe he/she prefers the "new look". Take out only would probably mean no table settings, dishes to wash, etc.

Thanks.
Tom
 
If the business was undergoing some construction then they might have to meet ADA requirements. For example, having some work done in the kitchen area would then force them to make the bathrooms accessible by installing wider doors as well as installing grab bars if none were present.
If no construction was planned or in the process, I don't think the business can be forced into the upgrades.
From a business point of view, why not cater to ALL customers... it just good business.
 
Banjo said:
As far as I'm concerned that situation is extortion. Amazingly allowed by poor laws. ....
Click to expand...
Changing the ADA law would have no effect on the ability of lawyers to engage in extortion. Lawyers are the only "people" who can legally do it. And they do. Sometimes the rest of us pay them to do that, like having them write a threatening letter to get someone to do what they are supposed to.
 
NutmegCT said:
Thanks Randall. You have more patience than I in reading through all that!

Here's one phrase which catches my eye: "or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area." ...
Click to expand...
Maybe there wasn't enough room to put in tables.
 
NutmegCT said:
Here's one phrase which catches my eye: "or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area."

Wouldn't that mean if one accessible table were provided, then none of the stools would need to be removed?
Click to expand...
That's the way I read it; so I'm assuming that was not practical for some reason.
 
Doug - could you tell us the name of this great burger place that just closed? I'd like to find out more details of the story.

I did find a burger place in Sacramento (Ford's Real Hamburgers) that apparently closed due to ADA issues, but that was in 2012, and isn't where you live.

Also, note the California law (effective January 1, 2013) which bans predatory ADA lawsuits. "It bans so-called "demand letters," in which lawyers threaten to sue over a possible violation unless a business pays thousands of dollars to settle. "

https://sacramento.news10.net/news/news/104879-law-bans-predatory-ada-lawsuits-against-businesses

Thanks.
Tom
 
What would we do without lawyers? Don't answer that!

Consultation fees
A lawyer's dog, running around town unleashed, heads for a butcher shop and steals a roast. The butcher goes to the lawyer's office and asks, "if a dog running unleashed steals a piece of meat from my store, do I have a right to demand payment for the meat from the dog's owner?" The lawyer answers, "Absolutely."

"Then you owe me $8.50. Your dog was loose and stole a roast from me today."

The lawyer, without a word, writes the butcher a check for $8.50. The butcher, having a feeling of satisfaction, leaves.

Three days later, the butcher finds a bill from the lawyer: $100 due for a consultation.:highly_amused:

Sorry Doug, I just couldn't resist.
 
Tom,

The scumbag (er - lawyer's) name is Jason K. Singleton.
This happened a few years ago,& as I hadn't been in that business
for (how many?) years,this is the first that I'd heard of it.
He also filed more cases than any other lawyer in the state of
California.Look up the oldrer articles in the Times-Standard,the local
newspaper.

- Doug
 
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